Province gives Calgary money... council deciding what to do with it.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by johnnyrocket03

So you want to do it to feel good and charitable? I think i'll take the refund, having more money in my account will make me feel pretty damn good.

No I don't want to do it to feel charitable. I want to do it because future Tinordi will thank present Tinordi for having a modicum of foresight.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Would your preference be no consultation? Or more formal methods? I don't think there's much appetite to do something like a plebiscite, but there's also a strong desire to hear from the public one way or another.

Videos are a fairly accessible and easy way for the public to understand the merits of each option a little better.

Originally Posted by Muta

Why is that lame? Watching what each alderman propose via Youtube is super cool. That's the kind of new civic engagement I was looking for when I voted for Nenshi.

I'm against public consultation of this kind of thing because generally speaking, the public are idiots. This Muta, you're right this is a new level of civic engagement, however it's not going to reach the right people. It would end up being type casted like PlanIt.

I don't like it because I want council to grow up and make some decisions that are good for the city as a whole. But that's probably just head in the sky idealism.

[Bunk]

A 5th option was added at Council, which is debt reduction.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Bunk

A 5th option was added at Council, which is debt reduction.

Split the fiscal conservative vote. Smart.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Split the fiscal conservative vote. Smart.

Alderman Chabot added it...

[SebC]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Split the fiscal conservative vote. Smart.

I know your average citizen doesn't vote strategically, but I would expect that our council members do.

[Daradon]

All are good options, but setting up a dedicated transit fund seems like a great idea. As long as they use it properly though and it doesn't get depleted in 10 years or so.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Daradon

All are good options, but setting up a dedicated transit fund seems like a great idea. As long as they use it properly though and it doesn't get depleted in 10 years or so.

If it's a capital fund, I think it's supposed to get "depleted". It would only be a "fund" rather an expidenture so the city can spend $25M one year and $75M the next, instead having to spend $50M both years. We're not going to preserve the capital and spend the interest on transit infrastructure, we'd get nowhere doing that.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by SebC

If it's a capital fund, I think it's supposed to get "depleted". It would only be a "fund" rather an expidenture so the city can spend $25M one year and $75M the next, instead having to spend $50M both years. We're not going to preserve the capital and spend the interest on transit infrastructure, we'd get nowhere doing that.

I see. I was thinking along the lines of Heritage Fund (though obviously using it more). Well, I'd still probably vote for 4 anyway.

[frinkprof]

While I actually do see some value in some combination of #2 as well as the new #5 (debt reduction), I do like #3 and #4.

Neighbourhood infrastructure revitalization is very important in older, established areas to entice redevelopment and just to make it more livable and worthwhile for existing populations/visitors. Some have said that transit will bring with it this investment, which is true, but only to an extent. What about areas that are not slated to have major transit corridors run through them, or those that already have it but it was built in an era that predated the concept of pre-planned TOD. Even then, waiting until private developers put improvements in place can produce a patchwork of new infrastructure and can leave areas that just need that extra little bit of encouragement in a state of disrepair forever just waiting for something to come along There are lots more areas than some might think, and some of them need some improvements of significant scale. Beltline, International Avenue, North Central Calgary corridors of Centre Street and Edmonton Trail, TOD sites on existing LRT lines such as Banff Trail, Lion's Park, Barlow/Max Bell (Firepark), Anderson Station, Marlborough, MacLeod Trail corridor between Chinook and the Elbow River, West Village in the medium term. Eventually the infrastructure in the middle rings of suburbs will need some love too.

Transit is of course is an important capital infrastructure investment that has come to the fore in the past several years. I do believe that a funding solution will be found to take care of the really big price tag items such as the full LRT lines that are needed and 8th Avenue Subway. Also important are the medium and small pricetag stuff. The less sexy stuff like busways, storage and maintenance facilities and vehicle replacement. Transit is really in a tough spot right now in that the big expansion stuff is needed but there is a big need for capital replacement. New trains, new buses and garage space to store it all.

The garages are full. Each one, and to the gills. Buses are being parked outside, along side streets and pretty much anywhere else they can be squeezed in. The oldest active bus in the fleet is older than most of the members at CalgaryPuck - a 1977 GMC New Look.

New trains are needed yesterday. The next order of 50 LRVs(for which funding has still not been secured) will see 20 of the units going to replace old units. Don't worry about sending still-useful trains to the scrapyard, Transit already has the 20 worst ones picked out with twice that number already on the list for the next replacement order. The 20 year capital plan that was presented 2003, 10 years ago called for the original 83 U2 model trains to be mostly replaced by 2013. Here we are and the only ones that have been retired are due to wrecks. Even then, they took 2 good ends of 2 wrecked cars and created a Frankenstein car because they are needed that much with no replacements confirmed to be arriving.

Oh yeah, and then there's what's needed for growth. New garages for both buses and trains. Several sites and expansions to existing faciliites have been earmarked, just awaiting funding. With all the track extensions, as well as 4 car trains, you could pretty much make orders of 50 units every couple years just to keep up. All of the new BRT routes, crosstown and feeder bus improvements that Route Ahead and the MDP call for will ensure that a steady diet of new buses will be a perpetual need.

Took a tour of Anderson Garage on the weekend and all of this was reinforced.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I see. I was thinking along the lines of Heritage Fund (though obviously using it more). Well, I'd still probably vote for 4 anyway.

The Heritage fund was intended to transfer wealth to the future to account for resources running out (roughly). Whereas this transit fund should get money in every year indefinitely.

=================

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Don't worry about sending still-useful trains to the scrapyard, Transit already has the 20 worst ones picked out with twice that number already on the list for the next replacement order. The 20 year capital plan that was presented 2003, 10 years ago called for the original 83 U2 model trains to be mostly replaced by 2013.

I'm still not entirely convinced... if we need the them in service and they still run, why not milk those cows a little longer? If the new cars could pay for themselves with a reduction in maintenance then we wouldn't really have to worry about funding them, and if they can't then why do we need to do these replacements?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Alderman Chabot added it...

Sorry, that was definitely partially tongue in cheek. If I was on council, I'd vote for the transit option. Our transit is great for a city our size, but it's a strategic advantage we need to keep investing in.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Here we are and the only ones that have been retired are due to wrecks. Even then, they took 2 good ends of 2 wrecked cars and created a Frankenstein car because they are needed that much with no replacements confirmed to be arriving.
.

That had to have cost about the same or more than buying a new one

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

That had to have cost about the same or more than buying a new one

You mean going down to the ol' train shop and buying a single car? Surprisingly (or not) it is a little bit more complicated (and expensive) than you obviously think it is to "buy a new one"

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by NuclearPizzaMan

You mean going down to the ol' train shop and buying a single car? Surprisingly (or not) it is a little bit more complicated (and expensive) than you obviously think it is to "buy a new one"

Right, that's obviously what I meant. I definitely wasn't saying we should have bought replacement cars sooner so we didn't have to build Frink's Franken-car. Obviously Siemen's/whoever wouldn't make 1 for us, but they probably would have sold us another order of replacement cars 5 years ago.

It's cheaper to replace things in a timely fashion than it is to bandaid a solution after they break, when you basically don't have a choice, since you can't buy one on short notice.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

That had to have cost about the same or more than buying a new one

New ones cost about $4 million. It can't cost that much to take two ends and connect them together. There isn't any modifying to do, just taking apart and reassembling. Each car is essentially two separate pieces connected with a hinge anyway.

[mykalberta]

Is council planning on putting all the money until the end of time into one of these areas?

Since this isnt a free 1-time capital injection (like how they paid for the ped bridges) it seems it would be prudent just to put it towards whatever budget items are unfunded or however the City Managers think it should be spent - either savings, spending, etc.

Wow, in 2010 1/3 of all property taxes were go to paying off debt. Yah paying off debt would be crazy.

http://www.ffwdweekly.com/article/ne...re-costs-6004/

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by SebC

I'm still not entirely convinced... if we need the them in service and they still run, why not milk those cows a little longer? If the new cars could pay for themselves with a reduction in maintenance then we wouldn't really have to worry about funding them, and if they can't then why do we need to do these replacements?

The problem is that most of the U2 units are seeing their reliability quickly deteriorating. They can run with maintenance, but break down relatively frequently. The man-hours put into fixing frequent break-downs start to pile up. In addition, with how overcapacity the system is on weekdays, breakdowns and reliability issues are magnified and become cost-increasing factors. When the CT twitter account is reporting a delay on the line, there's a good chance it's due to the older trains.

Wrecked cars (the ones that haven't been Frankenstein-ed into a "new" unit) have been mined for good parts, but that hasn't gone very far. Actually while I was at Anderson garage for only 90 minutes, some of the mechanics that were helping out with the tour had to respond to a call to recover a broken-down train on the line.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

That had to have cost about the same or more than buying a new one

Off-hand, I don't think that's true. I actually think it's an impressive and innovative solution.

The point made clear in your subsequent post isn't lost though. Timely replacement is needed.

[Cowboy89]

^great post. I ride the north-south trainline and since the West LRT started up and took up all the nice new train cars I've been stuck on U2 units, and have more often been late for work because of breakdowns on the line. One time the train car was so forgone, the whole train had to be evacuated and one lane of Crowchild trail traffic shut down to board us all onto buses. The sooner the U2's are put to pasture the better!