Healthcare Thread #4411

[sun]

CAUTION anecdote alert:

I've had to go to the ER twice. One visit was when I put a 3 inch framing nail through my hand. Second visit was for a kidney stone.

Basically walked into the hospital with a nail sticking out of my hand and immediately was shown to a doctor who yanked the thing out. I wasn't actually feeling much pain at all, so could have waited without too much problem if I needed to. Walked out of the place without paying a dime. Feels good, man.

Kidney stone was some next-level pain. Puked just outside the ER doorway from the pain. Was hooked up to an IV for morphine in <10 mins and had a CT scan in <1 hour. Eventually had to have 3-4 ultrasounds, probably 4-5 xrays, a lithotripsy, and a ureteroscopy. The litho and the ureteroscopy can be $10-20,000 in the states each apparently. I didn't pay a dime. Aside from mandatory MSP, which is 20ish bucks a month or something? I'd say that was worth it.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is there actually evidence that if you have a two-tier system that doctors leave the public side en mass?

There's other ways for competition to manifest itself... higher wages, more difficult labour negotiations etc.

It's basic economics that competition for labour exerts upwards pressure on the price of that labour.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Azure

Other countries? Like Lebanon? Or maybe Germany?

I know someone that flew to Germany yesterday to have back surgery on 3 herniated disks in his back. The surgery isn't even legal in Canada yet.

Should I still say our health care system is better? The guy has been living in pain for 10 years now because there is nothing our system can do about it. Now he'll spend the $50k to get in fixed in one of those 'other' countries.

Or should I stop whining because I was blessed to be born in Canada and not some crap hole like Lebanon? Maybe I should, but people tend to get frustrated when a system with obvious problems is not being fixed because the conversation is being dictated by people who us the US as a reason for why we shouldn't change.

Yep you should stop whining, the butt hurt is strong in this post.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SebC

There's other ways for competition to manifest itself... higher wages, more difficult labour negotiations etc.

It's basic economics that competition for labour exerts upwards pressure on the price of that labour.

Assuming of course that the doctors on the private side would make way more than the doctors on the private side.

Again, we are not talking about skilled surgeons here. We are talking about your 'general practitioner.'

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Azure

Other countries? Like Lebanon? Or maybe Germany?

I know someone that flew to Germany yesterday to have back surgery on 3 herniated disks in his back. The surgery isn't even legal in Canada yet.

Should I still say our health care system is better? The guy has been living in pain for 10 years now because there is nothing our system can do about it. Now he'll spend the $50k to get in fixed in one of those 'other' countries.

Or should I stop whining because I was blessed to be born in Canada and not some crap hole like Lebanon? Maybe I should, but people tend to get frustrated when a system with obvious problems is not being fixed because the conversation is being dictated by people who use the US as a reason for why we shouldn't change.

Enough said.

[Azure]

Question is why? Wasn't there a thread here on MS treatments and how they aren't legal in Canada yet either? Why are we so slow to adopt new procedures?

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Azure

Question is why? Wasn't there a thread here on MS treatments and how they aren't legal in Canada yet either? Why are we so slow to adopt new procedures?

It's called due diligence and it's likely saved a lot of people from a lot of undue suffering.

[DuffMan]

AHC administration and management is a huge mess. The money the execs are making + the perks is insane. The contracts they hand out to consultants who work there for a year or 2 and then leave with unbelievable severance packages boggles my mind. How the alta govt lets it go on without giving a crap is beyond me.

Having said that, my limited experiences with actual HC has been pretty good. I sat around an emergency room with a broken wrist for about 4 hours before I saw a doc, but when I didi go in, the admitting desk nurse asked me why i didn't ask for pain drugs, while I waited. my mistake, and if I ever end up in the same situation I will ask for drugs, while I wait. I also realize that other emergencies are going to happen that make my emergency not so urgent.
Once I was in for surgery though, it was great. All of the nurses were super. I don't know how they can stay so happy and positive working there but I figure this is their life calling and not just a job. I would've stayed longer then the 4 or so days i was there if I could've.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Meh, a severed finger can survive up to 12 hours at room temperatures, and up to several days if kept on ice.

Do you think there were any serious cases ahead of your buddy, or were they just trying to milk him on parking?

I doubt there were serious cases. Like I said the ER is only a few minutes away from Seven Oaks in Winnipeg, so most major cases are sent there en-route. At least that is what I was told by some paramedic friends.

In all honesty though, the hospital and ER have a pretty bad rep. They are in dire need of an upgrade on everything, including room. Of course, this is poor Manitoba we are talking about, so the planned upgrade has been postponed for a few years now.

The diagnostic side is pretty fast though if you hit it at the right time, which is fine.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

AHC administration and management is a huge mess. The money the execs are making + the perks is insane. The contracts they hand out to consultants who work there for a year or 2 and then leave with unbelievable severance packages boggles my mind. How the alta govt lets it go on without giving a crap is beyond me.

Having said that, my limited experiences with actual HC has been pretty good. I sat around an emergency room with a broken wrist for about 4 hours before I saw a doc, but when I didi go in, the admitting desk nurse asked me why i didn't ask for pain drugs, while I waited. my mistake, and if I ever end up in the same situation I will ask for drugs, while I wait. I also realize that other emergencies are going to happen that make my emergency not so urgent.
Once I was in for surgery though, it was great. All of the nurses were super. I don't know how they can stay so happy and positive working there but I figure this is their life calling and not just a job. I would've stayed longer then the 4 or so days i was there if I could've.

As with most companies where the bosses reward themselves while running the system to the ground, there is no reason to change if they keep raking it in.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by Azure

As for private providers that ALREADY exist.

http://www.copemanhealthcare.com/
http://www.provital.ca/
http://www.landmarkhealth.ca/

Out of curiosity - how much do these types of clinics cost? Is it significant?

[Azure]

Prices for Copeman can be found here.

http://www.copemanhealthcare.com/health-services/fees/

[Lego Man]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Wow, where is that video "everything is amazing and nobody is happy"?

I can't believe anyone who has visited another country would whine about our health care system.

I've always been more than happy with the service I've gotten at hospitals. I've waited 8 hours before and still left with a smile because I know how great the system is and how lucky I am to be in Canada.

That's exactly the kind of attitude that is destroying our Health System, and it's quite narrow minded to say in general. Ignorance is bliss.

Come on. It's been studied and compared to death. The health care system in Canada gets put to shame by others in the first world. From my personal experience and those of my family, we know people who have travelled to Poland numerous times for vacations would get themselves checked & treated during a 4 week vacation with something that would take 8-10 months to accomplish in Canada, and WAY cheaper. It's crazy how expensive health care still is in Canada.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

It is not even basically free at all. Canadians pay a lot of taxes and will pay even more in the future for that care. I have no problem with that, but lets not try to make it something it isn't.

Another solution would be to create a private side ER. You can go sit in the crappy publicly funded ER for hours on end, or you can pay private insurance and get faster treatment at a private ER. Would probably go a long way to alleviate the problems. All major cases would still go through the public system.

I would gladly pay money to be able to receive care faster.

Problem with that is all our good doctors would move to the private side as they would be able to earn more.

[pylon]

Anyone who complains we have sub par health care in this country should be ashamed. We have better access to medical care than 90% of the world, and better yet we don't pay out of pocket for it. It is the one thing as a Canadian, I am more grateful for than anything else. There are so many ways I can screw up my life in Canada on my own accord, but I do not have to ever worry about not being able to afford medical care. It is our greatest and most valuable freedom. To put a price tag on it would be impossible. I could be worth peace of mind to one person over a lifetime, or it could be worth millions to another who suffered through a major disease or injury. But don't think it isn't priceless, because it is.

Boohoo if someone has to wait a few hours to get their flu symptoms checked out in the ER. The people that typically complain are the people that are using ER's as their family doctor. I have needed urgent care a few times in my life, and every time, I have been zipped straight through and given immediate attention. And the times I have been asked to wait? I am not so narcissistic of a human being to think my finger that needs a stitch or two because of my own stupidity, is more important than a child in distress or an elderly person suffering a heart problem.

If people started using walk in clinics, and urgent care centres properly, the wait times would go down DRASTICALLY in ER's. The people abusing the system, are the biggest problem of all.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Question is why? Wasn't there a thread here on MS treatments and how they aren't legal in Canada yet either? Why are we so slow to adopt new procedures?

Because that treatment is absolute BS quackery with no scientific basis, and has made a large number of the people SIGNIFICANTLY worse after having the treatment.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Lego Man

Come on. It's been studied and compared to death. The health care system in Canada gets put to shame by others in the first world.

Sources?

Originally Posted by Lego Man

From my personal experience and those of my family, we know people who have travelled to Poland numerous times for vacations would get themselves checked & treated during a 4 week vacation with something that would take 8-10 months to accomplish in Canada, and WAY cheaper. It's crazy how expensive health care still is in Canada.

"WAY cheaper" than free, publicly insured procedures in Canada? Or are these non-insured procedures?

Also, "WAY cheaper" when correcting for purchase parity power between Canada and Poland?

Also, "WAY cheaper" when accounting for differences in quality of care, regulation, and existence/quality of malpractice insurance of providers?

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I've had an idea about how to have a public-private health care system.

DISCLAIMER!!!!

I don't know enough about how the current system is administered, nor the logistics of HOW to implement this proposal.

This is merely THE START of an idea, I cannot go into depth nor explain how the details would work.

I guess I'm posting this thought as a way for people to take it and run with it, or play with it.

Ok

Could it be possible if doctors could work privately BUT have to provide X amount of time for the public system?

For example, if doctors bill on average 30 hours a week. Have doctors bill 10 hours a week to the public system, and the other 20+ they can bill according to the guidelines set forth by the profession.

I know doctors work more than 30 hours a week, why I said billable hours that are attributed directly to the patient (like accountants and lawyers do).

How feisable this is I don't know. As I said I know know enough of the current system to be able to construct a new one.

Just a thought on how to make a public/private system without having the top doctors leave.


Then again maybe it will be like the legal profession. Lots of GREAT legal aid and crown attorneys as they like the hours, pension, and still get paid well without having to worry about driving the billable hours?

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by pylon

Because that treatment is absolute BS quackery with no scientific basis, and has made a large number of the people SIGNIFICANTLY worse after having the treatment.

Maybe so, but the guy I know who did it can still hold his kids when before the procedure he never had.

It did gradually not be as effective but it still is a lot better than it was before the surgery.

[Devils'Advocate]

Poland has one of the worst health care systems in Europe:
http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/99...orst-in-Europe

The EHI finds that Poles have one of the worst access to the most up-to-date drugs, have one of the highest mortality rates from cancer and one of the longest waiting times for an appointment with a doctor or treatment at a hospital.