The Flames Not As Weak As Many Believe

[Beatle17]

Also, I don't think guys like Cammy and Tanguay are the guys to keep. I don't like the attitude they seem to play with, maybe they are great in the room but I only care about the work ethic on the ice. As they build moving forward and as the already drafted guys are more ready then you switch them up, i.e. Reinhart in for Begin beginning now, Bouma in for either of the players metioned above. You add the youth with the new draft picks and hopefully improve the attitude and work ethic.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

I think that with the current players to SUPPLEMENT the young guys, and to take some of the heavy lifting off them that the Flames can turn around within a couple years and be competitive.

Every team in the NHL, even bottom-feeders like the Panthers, have those types of players. It's not as though bad teams are full of nothing but rookies and terrible players. For veterans, the Panthers have: Fleischmann, Weiss, Kopecky, Mueller, Versteeg, Campbell, Jovanovski.

Pretty weak. But no weaker than the Flames. And of course, I'm not including Florida's blue chip young players, like Huberdeau, Gudbranson, and Kulikov, regarded as better prospects than anything the Flames have.

Originally Posted by Beatle17

If you totally get rid of all NHL caliber players and try to run with young rookies then the team is in for a world of hurt.

Has anyone seriously advocated the Flames completely gut their roster of all NHL caliber players? And they couldn't do it if they wanted to - there's a little thing called the cap floor.

Originally Posted by Beatle17

If, and this is a big if, they draft the correct players to start the turnaround, keep some of the veteran players they have to help guide them and add a few free agents (not top of the line guys but some big rough defencemen) then they can start turning it around.

But the team is missing 4-5 core players. You aren't going to draft those in one season. If the team is very shrewd and very lucky, they get two core players in the upcoming draft. And those players are unlikely to make a big difference on the ice for 2-3 seasons (longer for any defencemen).

[BACKCHECK!!!]

The team is a complete disaster on the ice, but I do agree that the team is worse than the sum of its parts right now.

I'll give a slightly exaggerated example.

Let's say we have a team made entirely of offensively-minded 2nd line goal scorers. 2nd line scorers on every line. 2nd line snipers making up the defence too. And a talented 29 year old, 20-goal scorer, playing in net.

The team will be incredibad. They will lose every game.

But organizationally, how badly off are they? They have a reasonable number of assets. Almost all of their players are worth keeping. They have guys that would bring trade returns.

So maybe the asset pool is not as terrible as it could.

But I'm mostly grasping at straws with this one.

This looks like an expansion team.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

The team is a complete disaster on the ice, but I do agree that the team is worse than the sum of its parts right now.

I'll give a slightly exaggerated example.

Let's say we have a team made entirely of offensively-minded 2nd line goal scorers. 2nd line scorers on every line. 2nd line snipers making up the defence too. And a talented 29 year old, 20-goal scorer, playing in net.

The team will be incredibad. They will lose every game.

But organizationally, how badly off are they? They have a reasonable number of assets. Almost all of their players are worth keeping. They have guys that would bring trade returns.

So maybe the asset pool is not as terrible as it could.

But I'm mostly grasping at straws with this one.

This looks like an expansion team.

This is what you get when you take the best available talent rather than filling the needs of a team. Kevin Lowe seems to be the inventor of this school of hockey management and Feaster has taken it up a level.

A year ago Kostopolus was good enough to play 12 minutes/game in 81 games despite not having near the Skills of say Byron or Horak...

The Flames went out and got Cervenka who ended up taking Kostopulous's ice time. Cervenka is >>>>>>>>> talented than Kostopolous .... This has to be considered an upgrade .... until you look at the standings.

[freakinsaprikin]

I agree with many on here. The issue with this team might not necessarily be about talent level, but more to do with composition. This team is poorly put together and that's why we suck.

If they can take some of the current assets and move them out for parts that balance the line up more, we might not be that far off.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by freakinsaprikin

I agree with many on here. The issue with this team might not necessarily be about talent level, but more to do with composition. This team is poorly put together and that's why we suck.

If they can take some of the current assets and move them out for parts that balance the line up more, we might not be that far off.

Certainly , the poor construction is part of the issue.

The biggest reason the team sucks is that they have NO elite talent at any of the key positions. ZERO.

Filling the #1 and #2 C, the top scoring winger, the power skilled winger the #1 and #2 D, the #1 goalie slots with elite level talent will not be remedied anytime soon.

You cannot patchwork those key pieces.

You have to, primarily, draft them and develop them and when you have enough of them filled, then maybe you sign the missing piece in free agency and / or trade pieces of the future for that key piece.

As for now, it is all about building an elite team with the right pieces.

It will take superior planning and execution and a lot more time and patience than many want to believe.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But the team is missing 4-5 core players. You aren't going to draft those in one season.

How many "core players" do you envision a team needing? And what do you consider a core player? Because I think there are 3 potential future core players on the team right now (those being the Killer B's: Backlund, Brodie, Baertschi).

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Parallex

How many "core players" do you envision a team needing? And what do you consider a core player? Because I think there are 3 potential future core players on the team right now (those being the Killer B's: Backlund, Brodie, Baertschi).

Five or six. For example:

Chicago: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook.

Boston: Bergeron, Krejci, Seguin, Marchand, Chara, Rask.

Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, Fleury.

LA: Kopitar, Carter, Richards, Brown, Doughty, Quick.


I highly doubt Backlund or Brodie reach the level of any of those players. Baertschi maybe, which is why I consider him a possible core piece going forward.

Remember, the Flames of the future aren't competing against past versions of the Flames - they're competing against elite rivals. We have one young blue-chipper and a couple other legitimate NHLers. OK. Others teams have more. Would you rather have Backlund, Brodie, and Baertschi, or:

Price, Subban, Paccioretty, Gallagher, and Galchenyuk

Hall, RNH, Eberle, Schultz, and Yakupov

Karlsson, Zibanejad, Turris, Connacher ,and Lehner

Duchene, O'Reilly, Landeskog, and Stastny

Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Read, B Schenn, and Couturier

Berglund, Stewart, Perron, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Tarasenko, and Allen

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

How many "core players" do you envision a team needing? And what do you consider a core player? Because I think there are 3 potential future core players on the team right now (those being the Killer B's: Backlund, Brodie, Baertschi).

For a cup contendor you need franchise center and one top ten winger for first line, a franchise level D and his support on first line and a goalie, the Flames have none of these anywhere, with all respect to the above mentioned 'killer B's', they are all supporting parts, 2nd liners etc.

[afc wimbledon]

For all that they are made fun off, and I use them as an example because it's agreed they won't win a cup, but the Nucks still have The Sedins, Kessler, Hamhuis and Beiksa and both Luongo and Schnieder, all of whom would be considered first line players. Plus a plethora of support players, the Tanevs, Burrows and Edlers most of which they have drafted.

Thats what it takes to get a place in the lottery, they don't even have the talent/balance to win.

[BurningSteel]

Originally Posted by clifffletcher

five or six. For example:

Chicago: Toews, kane, hossa, sharp, keith, seabrook.

Boston: Bergeron, krejci, seguin, marchand, chara, rask.

Pittsburgh: Crosby, malkin, neal, letang, fleury, iginla

la: Kopitar, carter, richards, brown, doughty, quick.

fyp

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

For all that they are made fun off, and I use them as an example because it's agreed they won't win a cup, but the Nucks still have The Sedins, Kessler, Hamhuis and Beiksa and both Luongo and Schnieder, all of whom would be considered first line players.

Weird... I thought I posted but it didn't show up...

Regardless, in a nutshell I think Backlund is going to rival Kesler... minus the arsehole factor. It's uncanny how similer their development has been. I could very well see Backlund being on Kesler's level in the sense that while he may never actually be on the first line he'll do so much heavylifting that he allows other players to excel more then they otherwise would.

I think Backlund at least is a core part of the team going forward and if he's not then he should be... Just my opinion.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Weird... I thought I posted but it didn't show up...

Regardless, in a nutshell I think Backlund is going to rival Kesler... minus the arsehole factor. It's uncanny how similer their development has been. I could very well see Backlund being on Kesler's level in the sense that while he may never actually be on the first line he'll do so much heavylifting that he allows other players to excel more then they otherwise would.

Just my opinion.

You might be right, but that would be the best case for him, which is not how you prudently project team depth.
You also have to seperate the effects of the team on the player, where would Backlund fit on the Hawks or Anahiem, as a lousy team tends to inflate its players 'worth'.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

How many "core players" do you envision a team needing? And what do you consider a core player? Because I think there are 3 potential future core players on the team right now (those being the Killer B's: Backlund, Brodie, Baertschi).

Backlund doesn't look close to becoming a core guy and at best is a 2b center likely a 3rd line guy. Brodie has been okay but far from elite and likely a second pairing defenseman. Baertschi is still too early to tell his junior performance was great but his first year pro shows him being more likely good/very good not great.

If those 3 going forward are making up your core that is an awful core and likely a terrible team as well. I would say every team in the league has a much better core than that.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by freakinsaprikin

I agree with many on here. The issue with this team might not necessarily be about talent level, but more to do with composition. This team is poorly put together and that's why we suck.

If they can take some of the current assets and move them out for parts that balance the line up more, we might not be that far off.

I'm sure that this team could compete for a playoff spot in the short term if it tried for a one year turnaround. The question that needs to be asked though is, do Flames fans really want that?

I for one am tired of a team that competes for a playoff spot, I want one that is a legitimate contender for the big silver cup I see them hand out at the end of the year. In order to be one of those teams, you need a group of players who are above average to elite at key positions. The only way to get these players with any regularity is to draft them.

I sincerely hope they don't try to shortcut things.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by moon

Backlund doesn't look close to becoming a core guy and at best is a 2b center likely a 3rd line guy. Brodie has been okay but far from elite and likely a second pairing defenseman. Baertschi is still too early to tell his junior performance was great but his first year pro shows him being more likely good/very good not great.

If those 3 going forward are making up your core that is an awful core and likely a terrible team as well. I would say every team in the league has a much better core than that.

Backlund likely a 3rd line guy? Pass the pipe moon

Backlund will be more of an elite 2nd line centre or a poor man's 1st line centre than a 3rd line centre. Your pessimism comes out again. He hasn't peaked, the best is yet to come.

Brodie will likely end up in the 2/3 range.

Too early to tell on Baertschi but he'll probably be a 2nd line winger.

All will be core players for us for a while but not dominant NHL all stars. They aren't "making up the core" solely going forward but will be a part of it. A bigger part will likely be our own 1st rounder this year.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by moon

If those 3 going forward are making up your core that is an awful core and likely a terrible team as well.

I think they could be part of the future core not the sole members of it. And we're going to have to agree to disagree on Backlund.

[Vulcan]

The thing is, yeah we don't have a decent core but I don't trust a management team that can't even put together a team that has reasonable parts, to acquire the core components. This lineup looks like something a rookie poster would put together by just looking at scoring stats.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Backlund likely a 3rd line guy? Pass the pipe moon

Backlund will be more of an elite 2nd line centre or a poor man's 1st line centre than a 3rd line centre. Your pessimism comes out again. He hasn't peaked, the best is yet to come.

Based on what?

He has shown average to below average offensive skills in every year that he has been a professional and wasn't great in Sweden or the WHL either.

He has okay defensive skills, is weak on and off the puck so it isn't like his defensive abilities are going to make up for his lack of offense.

It's not pessimism its looking at his track record and what he has shown on the ice. I doubt you find a non-Flames fan that thinks he has a shot at a 1 line center and doubtful without homer glasses on that he is seen as a likely 2nd line guy either.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by moon

Based on what?

He has shown average to below average offensive skills in every year that he has been a professional and wasn't great in Sweden or the WHL either.

He has okay defensive skills, is weak on and off the puck so it isn't like his defensive abilities are going to make up for his lack of offense.

It's not pessimism its looking at his track record and what he has shown on the ice. I doubt you find a non-Flames fan that thinks he has a shot at a 1 line center and doubtful without homer glasses on that he is seen as a likely 2nd line guy either.

and maybe a bit injury prone due to size as a centermen.