The Flames Not As Weak As Many Believe

[toquester]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

This team is terrible, and has gigantic holes in every area of the lineup that matters. We need to draft our key players in the next 2-3 years as there is no other way to really get them.

There was more than one poster who predicted this outcome about 3 years ago, which is why it is so frustrating. It was painfully obvious what path this team was going down and they have followed the script virtually to the letter. Given that we are currently in a 4 year playoff drought, I can easily see it being 7-8 years out - and that's assuming that management doesn't try to shortcut things.

Teams that are bad for decades are that way because of terrible management, not because they tried to rebuild. In that vein, I too am worried that this might take a while.

People like to assume that the Flames will blow it up and take a few years and turn out like Chicago. It is just as possible that they blow it up, and turn out like Atlanta. Blowing things up and starting from scratch guarantees nothing.

[SOMBRI2]

I kindly disagree. If you watch enough (if not all) Flames games, you would spot many weak links on this team.

Tangs, Cammy are good 2nd liner (if the cap hit is right), they are no longer the game breakers. Although it seems they don't get caught up in D, but the +/- certainly indicates they are goats on many of the Flames goals. (-14 and -15 respectively, even most of them even strengths, it is either them or a line needs a Langkow to balance it).

We were excited about Sven and Jiri, even a little bit of Cervenka at the start of the year. But, this also reflects we have been so lack of these type of talents (in the Flames franchise history). In most other teams, they are 2nd liners at best. I would argue Huselius in his prime could have made more magical moments.

I think most fans expectations are to have top elite players, not top 2nd liners or middle 1st liners. We have been so lack of these game breakers (sans Iginla, Kiprusoff).

OP, if you are just pointing out things as is on paper, I would give you that argument, Flames are not extremely bad. But they are still far from good.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by toquester

People like to assume that the Flames will blow it up and take a few years and turn out like Chicago. It is just as possible that they blow it up, and turn out like Atlanta. Blowing things up and starting from scratch guarantees nothing.

There is no guaranteed path to success in professional sports. The best odds of having what is needed on the ice is to draft those pieces, that's just the cyclical nature that sports have.

If that plan fails, it is likely due to poor managerial decisions.

[PeteLFan]

Lol this team is awful and right where they belong battling for 30th overall. It's been a long time coming actually.

We need to tighten up on defense going forward, and get NHL defenseman in the fold going forward. The offense and skill will take time to develop and insert into the team, but to be somewhat competitive meaning when we are battling for 30th it doesn't seem like we have completely folded we need improve team defense.

The Columbus gm was on fan and said the best way to judge his team is a hard working team is penalty kill and defense. We rank right at the bottom, so that right there tells you the whole story.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I do think this current flames team is probably the worst collection of players in the league competing with Florida. Colorado has a nice looking roster on paper I think they are letting Sacco thank the team because they want Seth more than anything.

Next year though they could be looking on the right track adding Sven, top 3 pick, Reinhart, healthy Bouma, possibly Breen. This will go along with Brodie, Backlund and hopefully 1-2 players that are "not post apex". I am excited for this summer more than any in recent years.

The bolded part would be great, but posters have to remember that the flames only traded off 3 players. Sven, Breen, and Bouma could replace those 3, but then there is no room for a Reinhart and 1-2 "not post apex" players.

Posters are going to say, well the flames will just trade off some players. It's not that easy. How many trades have the flames made in the last 2 summers? I remember posters saying that the flames will trade a Hagman for a pick, or Stajan can be traded to a team below the cap. It did not happen because teams don't want to give up assets for those type of players.

Cammi makes way to much and if the flames will not eat any salary, he is not going anywhere. I think the flames need to eat salary on Tangs also, or they will have to take a contract back on a 3rd liner, which will still not open a spot for the above players.

Teams are not going to want to trade a pick or prospect for players like Stajan and Stempniak, when they could just pick a player of this type up in UFA and keep pick or prospect.

The only tradeable players that i see that could get a good return in the summer are Glencross and Gio. Feaster does not seem to want to trade them.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by toquester

People like to assume that the Flames will blow it up and take a few years and turn out like Chicago. It is just as possible that they blow it up, and turn out like Atlanta. Blowing things up and starting from scratch guarantees nothing.

You could say the exact same thing if they go re-tool route.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

LoL, your post is 6 days late OP, April Fool's day was last Monday.

They are not a "decent group", they are probably the worst NHL team I have ever had the pleasure of watching regularly and are certainly the worst team the Flames franchise has ever iced. I would be willing and happy to get rid of most of them, many for nothing at all. I predict this rebuild will be rather long, mostly due to management/ownership constantly trying to speed it up.

Edit: I do like Brodie, Backlund and (last night) Max...so a few bright spots I guess.

Somebody was obviously not a fan during the "young guns" era. Not even close to how bad some of those Flames rosters were.

[toquester]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

You could say the exact same thing if they go re-tool route.

To be honest, I am not aware of the players on the Chicago or Pittsburgh teams that were carry overs from previous teams before success but I suspect they had some.

I doubt they had a complete re-tooling.

[Igster]

Funny thing is, when I read the roster lineup at the start of the season and then was hoping for the infusion of some youth like Sven, I thought the team was much better than they are. I really thought they would challenge for a playoff spot.

I was wrong and TSN was right I guess.

[moon]

Originally Posted by toquester

To be honest, I am not aware of the players on the Chicago or Pittsburgh teams that were carry overs from previous teams before success but I suspect they had some.

I doubt they had a complete re-tooling.

The list of guys on the first Stanley Cup Appearance team and team year before Crosby played is Rookie Ryan Malone, Scuderi for 13 games and 20 games of Marc-Andre Fleury.

So pretty all of the Penguins were switched from season before Crosby to first time they had success.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by toquester

People like to assume that the Flames will blow it up and take a few years and turn out like Chicago. It is just as possible that they blow it up, and turn out like Atlanta. Blowing things up and starting from scratch guarantees nothing.

By trading away their big name and arguably best forward and defenseman with no immediate return of players, they have already chosen the "blow it up" route to high draft picks as the solution. And you're right, there are no guarantees that this might eventually turn them into a winning team.

And while the forwards and team scoring abilities may not be terrible, the defensemen are truly awful - case in point - the first goal last night: Giordano made a stupid decision up ice, and Wideman didn't have a clue how to play against a 2 on 1. Kipper had no chance.

[Hockey_Ninja]

I agree 100% with what moon posted. I dislike pretty much 99% of the team we have right now.

While i think Gio gets too much hate at times he has been brutal this year.

Tanguay while still offensively skilled and scoring points is a complete floater now, get this guy out of here asap. I'd rather have Sven struggling playing his role then him on our team.

I don't mind keeping Cammi around (great personality, winning attitude and seems to be a good leader and guy) but i also wouldn't shed a tear if he was shipped out.

Glencross: pure sniper, great skater, dumb dumb decisions a lot. I know i said that i didn't mind he was an untouchable at the trade deadline but looking back at it now, the only untouchables should have been our draft picks, our prospects and any player age 25 or younger. At least see what teams where offering Jay, we could have had 4 first rounder this draft.

I don't mind Hudler. His play has gone down but he does put in actual effort out their. His contract doesn't look so bad after how he played for us so far.

Kipper. Pretty self explanatory. Although if he stays next year i could see him bouncing back a bit, but not by much.

The guys i like: Backlund, Stempniak, McGrattan, Brodie. Yup, that's pretty much it. This team needs everything. Feaster and co. have to nail the first round this year. Please don't go off the board with our top 3 pick. If we do, then i might have to take a break from this team for a while.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by toquester

People like to assume that the Flames will blow it up and take a few years and turn out like Chicago. It is just as possible that they blow it up, and turn out like Atlanta. Blowing things up and starting from scratch guarantees nothing.

I doubt it. Atlanta didn't spend to the cap. Show me one team that blew it up and then spent to the cap that sucks. Truth is, you can't. If we blow it up, get some solid pieces in the draft, and then, through smart management, fill the rest of the holes on the roster through free agency/trades while spending up to the cap, this team will be successful. Maybe they don't win the cup, but they become a respectable team that is in the conversation of winning it for a number of years.

[PeteLFan]

I'm not sure why anyone wants us to spend to the cap or ownership would want us too. Just because we have the luxury to do so doesn't mean we should.

Obviously we will need too sign a few free agents to hit the floor, and plug in holes, but this team should not go shopping until the core is solidified and ready to make a run at playoffs or a cup. Right now we don't even have a core, so how do you surround then with veterans? Those free agent pickups might become the core group again, and then we are right back in the mess we started with.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by PeteLFan

I'm not sure why anyone wants us to spend to the cap or ownership would want us too. Just because we have the luxury to do so doesn't mean we should.

Obviously we will need too sign a few free agents to hit the floor, and plug in holes, but this team should not go shopping until the core is solidified and ready to make a run at playoffs or a cup. Right now we don't even have a core, so how do you surround then with veterans? Those free agent pickups might become the core group again, and then we are right back in the mess we started with.

I'm not saying that they should be doing it any time soon. What I am saying is that our fate will be different from teams like Atlanta and NYI because once the team starts to improve, the ownership of this team will likely be willing to spend up to the cap. I'd be willing to bet that if the Islanders actually put some money into their team and gave Tavares someone to play with, they would be a decent team by now. I don't see that same issue occurring with the Flames.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Somebody was obviously not a fan during the "young guns" era. Not even close to how bad some of those Flames rosters were.

None of those teams were anywhere close to being a #1 overall pick because of futility.

This team as currently iced is by far the worst since the team came to Calgary.

[Weiser Wonder]

Our wingers would be fine if the Flames had San Jose's centers. However, since the Flames only two centers who aren't anything special, the wingers look really bad.

It will be nearly impossible to acquire the centers needed to be competitive in the near future, so having some decent wingers that will be over the hill when the Flames do get it together doesn't mean much.

The same thing goes for the defense. The Flames need a #1 and #2 in order for Giordano, Brodie and Wideman to be valuable pieces and the Flames probably won't find a #1 or #2 while Giordano and Wideman are still in their prime. It's a little better of situation because I think Brodie might be able to develop into a #2.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Somebody was obviously not a fan during the "young guns" era. Not even close to how bad some of those Flames rosters were.

I was a fan back then, but didn't watch a single game (was very hard to do it in Russia with the way internet was in late 90s). I still would argue that young Iginla alone makes young guns team at least "close" to the current one. Think of it this way, would you trade young Iginla for today's Cammy, Tanguay, Glencross and Gio? Of course, no. Also that team did have elite player in Fleury. And once he was gone, they got bluechip prospect in Robyn Regehr. From my not so qualified point of view, they were about as bad, or marginally better, as current roster, but younger and had WAY more potential.

[boogerz]

This team has some good support pieces, but there are major gaps:

No #1 center, elite forwards, or center depth
No #1 dman, or defense by committee type of depth (e.g. Vancouver and San Jose)
No starting goalie

I'm probably retreading some ground here, but the Flames need at least two of those three to compete for a playoff spot. None of those types of players grow on trees, and the UFA market is too thin for the Flames to acquire enough top4 defensemen to form a a defense by committee type of deal (if that is the plan).

The loss of Iginla and Bouwmeester don't set this team very far back, but there is a lot of ground they need to make up if they hope to make the playoffs soon.

[Lanny_McDonald]

When Iginla was here there were too many people that thought the team was better than it was. Now that Iginla is gone they think the team is worse than it is. The team isn't as bad as it appears. Someone else said it in the thread. The Flames are just a little too old and it shows. Fortunately there are some kids that can step into support roles and the team will get younger, and as they do, get better. This is why the Flames look really bad. They are in transition and teams in transition always appear to be worse than they are.

The Flames have some really nice pieces in support roles. Where they are lacking is star power up top. That is why this draft is so important, and why player development is crucial. Add a franchise center in this draft, another high end forward and top 4 defenseman in the first round of this draft and they may not be that bad off. There are still pieces on the current roster that could help recoup another good young player that could slot into the top six. With the cap space the Flames have, and the troubles other teams may run into, they could easily find another body that fills out the top six. It's not as bad as many like to say.