Do the Flames really need Kipper?

[Enoch Root]

MacDonald has done a great job of being an addequate backup.

Ramo is a complete unknown.

Without Kiprusoff, the Flames do not have a #1 goaltender.

Period.

Once they do, then you can talk about trading Kiprusoff.

[kirant]

Given this team is 2-2-0 against playoff teams after the injury, with two of those wins coming against Bachman and getting soundly thumped in the losses, there's some major need for Kiprusoff to come back at the top of his game if playoffs are desired.

[afc wimbledon]

It is probably not a great idea to trade an older injured goalie having a lousy year so far, that said the Flames don't 'need' Kipper, with him they are a 9th or 10th place team and 2 wins over the weekend against equally challenged clubs doesn't change that fact.
Assuming he comes back and ups his game, and assuming there is a buyer that offers a decent return, of course you trade him, this is not a playoff team therefore you look to get trade value out of all and any of your older players.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by kirant

Given this team is 3-4-2 with two of those wins coming against Bachman, there's some major need for Kiprusoff to come back at the top of his game of playoffs are desired.

5-4-1 without Kipper, actually, but there is definitely a need for him to come back strong if we intend to make noise this year.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It is probably not a great idea to trade an older injured goalie having a lousy year so far, that said the Flames don't 'need' Kipper, with him they are a 9th or 10th place team and 2 wins over the weekend against equally challenged clubs doesn't change that fact.
Assuming he comes back and ups his game, and assuming there is a buyer that offers a decent return, of course you trade him, this is not a playoff team therefore you look to get trade value out of all and any of your older players.

If Kipper does not improve, there's a good chance he doesn't come back. Next year's contract only pays him 1.5 million next year. He's not going to stick around to play a backup role on a struggling team for that money. If we don't trade him this year and we continue to struggle, there's a good chance he walks for nothing and returns to Europe.

We trade him at the deadline, even if for a reduced sum, or we get nothing for him.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

5-4-1 without Kipper, actually, but there is definitely a need for him to come back strong if we intend to make noise this year.

I meant against playoff teams as a whole.

I'll fix those stats to make sense.

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

5-4-1 without Kipper, actually, but there is definitely a need for him to come back strong if we intend to make noise this year.

We're not going to make "noise this year". We're all getting excited because we're close to 8th place. Quit dreaming in technicolour.

[DeluxeMoustache]

We all know that Sutter signed Kipper to a cap circumventing contract years ago. Can anyone provide a legitimate source indicating that Kipper does not intend to play out the last year?

Just because his pay goes down does not mean that he doesn't have another year or two afterwards to play for.

By legitimate, I do not mean Eric Francis, Pat Steinberg, TSN's professional speculators, or CP.

I mean something like a quote from Kipper, Feaster, Darryl Sutter, Ken King, Murray Edwards, Kipper's teammates.

Thanks. I will be surprised if there is one.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Teroy

We're not going to make "noise this year". We're all getting excited because we're close to 8th place. Quit dreaming in technicolour.

The fact that you are a quitter does not mean anyone else needs to be.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Teroy

We're not going to make "noise this year". We're all getting excited because we're close to 8th place. Quit dreaming in technicolour.

Hey why don't you tell us about the worlds largest ball of twine.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

We all know that Sutter signed Kipper to a cap circumventing contract years ago. Can anyone provide a legitimate source indicating that Kipper does not intend to play out the last year?

Just because his pay goes down does not mean that he doesn't have another year or two afterwards to play for.

By legitimate, I do not mean Eric Francis, Pat Steinberg, TSN's professional speculators, or CP.

I mean something like a quote from Kipper, Feaster, Darryl Sutter, Ken King, Murray Edwards, Kipper's teammates.

Thanks. I will be surprised if there is one.

This. Other than pure speculation, there hasn't even been a whisper from Kipper that he's planning on retiring after this year. 1.5 million is still a decent chunk of change, and given that we don't have a concrete heir to take over in the crease, he could still be a starter next year, or at least split duty 50%.

[MyFlamesFirst]

Macdonals has been good. Not great. I find with my limited viewing of him is that consistency is some what a problem. I also find he has poor rebound control. He will make the first save but you better hope our D is the first one to the rebound.(Without kicking it into our own net) He played a great game against the wild and an okay game against phoenix. I think to have a shot of making the playoffs we absolutely need kipper, and kipper at his best. If we look at last nights 5-4 win. Its not too often were going to tie the game up and then take the lead with under 2 minutes in the 3rd. With Kipper in net at his finest he probably would have controlled more rebounds and maybe not let in two of the goals Macdonald did. We would of been able to win the game 3-2 ( the score after 2) instead of 5-4 which is how we are going to have to win games down the road because quite simply we can't expect the flames to score five goals every night.

[troutman]

Rebuilding is not "quitting". Treading water seems more cowardly actually.

[moon]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

We all know that Sutter signed Kipper to a cap circumventing contract years ago. Can anyone provide a legitimate source indicating that Kipper does not intend to play out the last year?

Just because his pay goes down does not mean that he doesn't have another year or two afterwards to play for.

By legitimate, I do not mean Eric Francis, Pat Steinberg, TSN's professional speculators, or CP.

I mean something like a quote from Kipper, Feaster, Darryl Sutter, Ken King, Murray Edwards, Kipper's teammates.

Thanks. I will be surprised if there is one.

Wouldn't the Flames be in huge trouble if any of the people you mention said that he wasn't planning on playing that last year?

Having a team official state that seems like admitting they are involved in cap circumvention.

[HartAttack]

This might not be a popular post, but my opinion is that in general, Kipper's play has been fading over the past 3 or 4 seasons and the Flames DO NOT NEED HIM. Just look at his SV% or GAA in comparison to other goalies over that timeframe. It has been mediocre, at best. People always point out all of the amazing saves he's made over his career. He over commits, lays on his belly a lot, and puts himself in a position where he has to make the acrobatic save, just to be an average goaltender (stats wise)! Granted there are some brilliant saves that only Kipper could make, but still the same...

Most people here in Calgary have the blinders on when it comes to Kipper, they still think that he's this unbeatable machine/man hybrid that stopped pucks for us back in 2004-2007. He's not! My theory is, if we had anything better than average goaltending, this team would be in the top 4 of the Western Conference, every year.

So, is it a coincedence that the top teams in the league just happen to have the best goaltenders (stats wise)? Or, do the players make the goalie that much better? Relating this back to Kipper, would the Flames be any better with Kipper in net, versus an average Joey MacDonald? NO, I don't think they would.

And, when you really look at the depth Calgary has in net (Taylor, Brust, Irving), could any or all 3 of these guys end up starting goaltenders in the NHL? I think yes. If they are given a legitimate opportunity, meaning they have more than 1 or 2 games to prove they're worth their salt, or they're sent down to the farm...

Just look at the history of goaltenders. How did Craig Anderson become an above average starting goalie? What about Mike Smith or Ray Emery? These were back-up goalies, sometimes 3rd stringers, who couldn't cut it with the very limited opportunity they were given. And look at these guys are among the top of NHL goaltenders today (at least in the top 10-15).

Anyway, when Kipper comes back I hope he plays well. But we do not NEED him to make the playoffs; we need above average goaltending, which might not be coming from any of the 2 goalies we appear to be riding into the sunset (Kipper/MacDonald).

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by HartAttack

This might not be a popular post, but my opinion is that in general, Kipper's play has been fading over the past 3 or 4 seasons and the Flames DO NOT NEED HIM. Just look at his SV% or GAA in comparison to other goalies over that timeframe. It has been mediocre, at best. People always point out all of the amazing saves he's made over his career. He over commits, lays on his belly a lot, and puts himself in a position where he has to make the acrobatic save, just to be an average goaltender (stats wise)! Granted there are some brilliant saves that only Kipper could make, but still the same...

Most people here in Calgary have the blinders on when it comes to Kipper, they still think that he's this unbeatable machine/man hybrid that stopped pucks for us back in 2004-2007. He's not! My theory is, if we had anything better than average goaltending, this team would be in the top 4 of the Western Conference, every year.

Had me up until here

[moon]

Originally Posted by HartAttack

And, when you really look at the depth Calgary has in net (Taylor, Brust, Irving), could any or all 3 of these guys end up starting goaltenders in the NHL? I think yes. If they are given a legitimate opportunity, meaning they have more than 1 or 2 games to prove they're worth their salt, or they're sent down to the farm...

Just look at the history of goaltenders. How did Craig Anderson become an above average starting goalie? What about Mike Smith or Ray Emery? These were back-up goalies, sometimes 3rd stringers, who couldn't cut it with the very limited opportunity they were given. And look at these guys are among the top of NHL goaltenders today (at least in the top 10-15).

Anyway, when Kipper comes back I hope he plays well. But we do not NEED him to make the playoffs; we need above average goaltending, which might not be coming from any of the 2 goalies we appear to be riding into the sunset (Kipper/MacDonald).

Calgary doesn't have Brust but even if they did none of Brust, Irving or Taylor look like they could be a starter. Irving is by far the closest but the team doesn't seem to want to give him a shot and it likely is that it doesn't work out.

Emery seemed to be a young guy groomed to be the starter in Ottawa for awhile and didn't really work out at all and certainly isn't in the top 15 goalies in the NHL.

Seems risky to pin hopes on the guys we have being the exceptions (Smith, Anderson) and not the rule (1000's of other back-up 3 stringers that don't do crap).

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by HartAttack

This might not be a popular post, but my opinion is that in general, Kipper's play has been fading over the past 3 or 4 seasons and the Flames DO NOT NEED HIM. Just look at his SV% or GAA in comparison to other goalies over that timeframe. It has been mediocre, at best. People always point out all of the amazing saves he's made over his career. He over commits, lays on his belly a lot, and puts himself in a position where he has to make the acrobatic save, just to be an average goaltender (stats wise)! Granted there are some brilliant saves that only Kipper could make, but still the same...

Most people here in Calgary have the blinders on when it comes to Kipper, they still think that he's this unbeatable machine/man hybrid that stopped pucks for us back in 2004-2007. He's not! My theory is, if we had anything better than average goaltending, this team would be in the top 4 of the Western Conference, every year.

So, is it a coincedence that the top teams in the league just happen to have the best goaltenders (stats wise)? Or, do the players make the goalie that much better? Relating this back to Kipper, would the Flames be any better with Kipper in net, versus an average Joey MacDonald? NO, I don't think they would.

And, when you really look at the depth Calgary has in net (Taylor, Brust, Irving), could any or all 3 of these guys end up starting goaltenders in the NHL? I think yes. If they are given a legitimate opportunity, meaning they have more than 1 or 2 games to prove they're worth their salt, or they're sent down to the farm...

Just look at the history of goaltenders. How did Craig Anderson become an above average starting goalie? What about Mike Smith or Ray Emery? These were back-up goalies, sometimes 3rd stringers, who couldn't cut it with the very limited opportunity they were given. And look at these guys are among the top of NHL goaltenders today (at least in the top 10-15).

Anyway, when Kipper comes back I hope he plays well. But we do not NEED him to make the playoffs; we need above average goaltending, which might not be coming from any of the 2 goalies we appear to be riding into the sunset (Kipper/MacDonald).

Kipper is the only reason the flames did not draft in the top 3 last summer. This team is many many steps away from being top 4 in the western conference. Goaltending is not one of them.

[CSharp]

Flames have a greater chance of winning and making the playoffs with Kipper in net than having Comeau-ver, GlenX, and Tangs in the lineup!

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by troutman

Rebuilding is not "quitting". Treading water seems more cowardly actually.

Assuming failure is quitting.

Nor is there a rule that says you can't try to win while you rebuild.