Are Kiprusoff and Iginla really the problem?

[zamler]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

so...according to your analysis what is the problem?

Not Miikka or Jarome, try to keep up man. But seriously I have no idea what this person is trying to say.

[EddyBeers]

They better turn it around soon or else the coach will be blamed and the Flames will need to hire a new bench boss, perhaps someone who is tougher, more defensive minded rather than having an offensive let them play mentality behind the bench.

[GreenLantern2814]

Neither player is particularly to blame for the state of this franchise. The organizational insistence that Jarome Iginla is still a premiere player is to blame. He's a first-line player.

I listened to Loubo and Pat on the way home today and Loubo said 'when he wants to, Iginla can still take over games' (or something to this effect; the first part is what's important). "When he wants to" isn't going to make the playoffs. Sidney Crosby doesn't care if he's playing the Jets or the Flyers, he's in it to break your spirit and prove he's better than you.

When was the last time you can say anyone on this team played like that on a consistent basis?

[Tinordi]

The problem is that Kiprusoff and Iginla are the only two elite players on this team and they're old and becoming less effective.

We need front line players on this team. We have basically none after Iginla. If you look at the standings almost every team in a playoff position currently has better higher end talent.

This is a team of second and third liners. You need first liners.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Neither player is particularly to blame for the state of this franchise. The organizational insistence that Jarome Iginla is still a premiere player is to blame. He's a first-line player.

I listened to Loubo and Pat on the way home today and Loubo said 'when he wants to, Iginla can still take over games' (or something to this effect; the first part is what's important). "When he wants to" isn't going to make the playoffs. Sidney Crosby doesn't care if he's playing the Jets or the Flyers, he's in it to break your spirit and prove he's better than you.

When was the last time you can say anyone on this team played like that on a consistent basis?

Until the middle of last season I would have said Giordano, but with the decline of his play there really isn't anyone that does it on a consistent basis.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

This seems like an overly simplistic way to look at it. You can't treat building a winning hockey team like you're trouble-shooting your car. "Well I've replaced the spark plugs, the cables and the distributor, so it must be the starter." It's entirely possible that from year to year there are different reasons the team doesn't meet expectations as the make up of the team, coaching staff, and progression/regression of players all change to varying degrees from year to year.

This isn't to say that Iginla and Kiprusoff are immune to criticism either, as their slow starts season to season obviously impact the team as a whole, but if the success/failure of your team relies solely on the backs of two players then there are bigger issues in the make up of the team as a whole.

The thing is, at the time, the problem probably wasn't Kipper/Iggy. Now, they've certainly held onto Iginla too long, and we could see Kipper falling into that category as well. Though I suspect both will find new life in new surroundings; they've both got to be so gassed from being asked to carry this team for so long. Both need fresh starts, and so does the team.

[skcli]

They are part of the problem, not all of the problems. KK has a bad management team, including the scouts. The players that we brought in for the last few years has been mediocre at best, while our elite players are getting older.

These problems can only be fixed with drafts, so forget about blaming the vets, their glorious moments are in the history book

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

Whats competitve? Falling short of the playoffs for a possible 4th straight year? If we are closer to 15th then 8th I think the mandate will change. I understand Kipper is a good goalie and helps us keep closer to the playoff dream, but in reality he is no Martin Brodeur, and we have keepers coming up through the system that need a chance.

I am not disagreeing with you but I doubt that ownership will change their mandate. This team is not going to be bottom 3 in the draft.

Also for the goaltenders coming up through the system , they are not that close. I think they have some quality prospects but they are 3 years away. Maybe Ramo but we really don't know about him.

[Beer-gut Murray]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

This seems like an overly simplistic way to look at it. You can't treat building a winning hockey team like you're trouble-shooting your car. "Well I've replaced the spark plugs, the cables and the distributor, so it must be the starter." It's entirely possible that from year to year there are different reasons the team doesn't meet expectations as the make up of the team, coaching staff, and progression/regression of players all change to varying degrees from year to year.

This isn't to say that Iginla and Kiprusoff are immune to criticism either, as their slow starts season to season obviously impact the team as a whole, but if the success/failure of your team relies solely on the backs of two players then there are bigger issues in the make up of the team as a whole.

Agreed.

Just because they are the only constants, it doesn't point to them being the issue. If we are focusing on constants, get rid of Harvey the Hound. He's been a part of this team for a dog's age.

Is a complete purge of the 2004 roster necessary to build a team? I find this argument very short-sighted.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is a team of second and third liners. You need first liners.

We have players that can assume that role, they are just never given the chance. The Flames organization would probably put Iggy on the 1st line up until he was 70 years old if they could.

Originally Posted by Beer-gut Murray

Is a complete purge of the 2004 roster necessary to build a team? I find this argument very short-sighted.

Essentially yes, if for no other reason than to get back young talent when assets like Iggy are still worth something. That time has probably come and gone however.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I am not disagreeing with you but I doubt that ownership will change their mandate. This team is not going to be bottom 3 in the draft.

Also for the goaltenders coming up through the system , they are not that close. I think they have some quality prospects but they are 3 years away. Maybe Ramo but we really don't know about him.

Really? They have 1 win. And 1 first line player. They are the team you play your backup against. That's a team that drafts top 3.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

They're not the problem. The problem is lack of succession. Kiprusoff should not be required to play 70+ games and some young players should be pushing Iginla to the 2nd line by now.

In terms of goaltending, the Flames, if anything, have invested too many resources into. Goaltending development is such a crap shoot. The Flames would be a lot better off now if they had avoided using any 1st and 2nd round picks on goaltenders.

You can easily fault the team for not putting enough resources into skilled forwards, but in terms of goalies, the Flames consistently have one of the best pool of goalie prospects...none of them ever seem to work out.

And yes, for the record Kipper is the main problem this season. He's been downright awful. We'd have a winning record if we had an average goalie in net.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by zamler

We have players that can assume that role, they are just never given the chance. The Flames organization would probably put Iggy on the 1st line up until he was 70 years old if they could.

Essentially yes, if for no other reason than to get back young talent when assets like Iggy are still worth something. That time has probably come and gone however.

Who? As much as we criticize him, the fact that nobody has been able to take that job from him speaks volumes. This is pro sports. You don't lose your job just because you get old. And if anyone was undeniable enough to take iggy's role, the captain would be on the 2nd line so fast it would make your head spin.

Iginla is the teams best player and their best rw. And that is why they're not a playoff team, and it's why they look like they're heading for Nathan MacKinnon.

[hkstylez]

A bit off topic here, I'm probably gonna get an earful from this, but I am just quoting what I heard from a buddy of mine.

How would most of you casual/hardcore fans feel about Iginla retiring as an Edmonton Oiler instead of a Calgary Flames? I am saying this because my buddy is friends with a friend who's wife hangs out with Iginla's wife regularly. The two couples went out to dinner one night and chatted up.

My buddies friend decided to ask Iggy to see if there was gonna be hockey this season (This dinner happened before the Lockout.). Iggy responded back by saying that he hopes there will be hockey and that maybe one day before he retire's, he would like to play for the Oilers for 1 season and retire there.

Since Iginla is from Edmonton, I guess it does make sense that he wants to play for the Oilers for a season and retire, he did not mention anything about trying to a win a cup there, just wanted to retire as an Oilers.

And since Iggy is a UFA this season, does he peace out and sign with Edmonton?

Remember, This is not coming from me, I am just quoting what my buddy has told me.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by hkstylez

How would most of you casual/hardcore fans feel about Iginla retiring as an Edmonton Oiler instead of a Calgary Flames?

How about no.

[Red Slinger]

I don't think they're the problem but certainly part of the problem. Kiprusoff less so as he's been the Flames best player for years and generally does his job, which is to stop the puck and give the team a chance to win. Albeit, his start to this season has been bad and he's cost the team some points. But historically, other than small stretches, Kiprusoff hasn't been holding back this team.

Iginla is a bit of a different issue. He was clearly the team's leader and best skater for over a decade. I agree that he is in fantastic physical condition. However, I'm not comfortable with the comparison to Selanne. Yes, they're both aging but Selanne's game and skill-set is much different to Iginla's and frankly, it translates better to the post 2005 lockout NHL. Iginla is less and less of a force on the ice and more and more a situational player, similar to a guy like Brett Hull. Don't get me wrong, he's very effective at what he does (shoot the puck) but he's not that great at much else anymore (other than the occasional scrap). He is no longer that guy that stirs the drink and the team needs a real offensive leader. Iginla should be a high-level complimentary player now, rather than the go-to guy. Nevermind that he has ignored the defensive side to some degree for several years and, as leader, likely set a bad example for the other players in the organization.

So, I agree that Kiprusoff isn't the problem but I think Iginla's current role on the team is kind of a problem.

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by hkstylez

A bit off topic here, I'm probably gonna get an earful from this, but I am just quoting what I heard from a buddy of mine.

How would most of you casual/hardcore fans feel about Iginla retiring as an Edmonton Oiler instead of a Calgary Flames? I am saying this because my buddy is friends with a friend who's wife hangs out with Iginla's wife regularly. The two couples went out to dinner one night and chatted up.

My buddies friend decided to ask Iggy to see if there was gonna be hockey this season (This dinner happened before the Lockout.). Iggy responded back by saying that he hopes there will be hockey and that maybe one day before he retire's, he would like to play for the Oilers for 1 season and retire there.

Since Iginla is from Edmonton, I guess it does make sense that he wants to play for the Oilers for a season and retire, he did not mention anything about trying to a win a cup there, just wanted to retire as an Oilers.

And since Iggy is a UFA this season, does he peace out and sign with Edmonton?

Remember, This is not coming from me, I am just quoting what my buddy has told me.

That sounds like a typical Iggy, nice guy response to your Oiler fan friend. He's too classy to say " No way f### the Oilers"

[JiriHrdina]

Unfair weight is being placed on their shoulders, but they remain two of the highest paid players on the team.

Iginla's slow starts are unacceptable, and a factor in the team's slow starts, that then cause them to over-play Kipper, etc.

Moreover, in big games down the stretch, Iginla' also hasn't delivered.

#12 has been a big part of the team's struggles in recent years. I put more blame on his shoulders than Kipper.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by hkstylez

A bit off topic here, I'm probably gonna get an earful from this, but I am just quoting what I heard from a buddy of mine.

How would most of you casual/hardcore fans feel about Iginla retiring as an Edmonton Oiler instead of a Calgary Flames? I am saying this because my buddy is friends with a friend who's wife hangs out with Iginla's wife regularly. The two couples went out to dinner one night and chatted up.

My buddies friend decided to ask Iggy to see if there was gonna be hockey this season (This dinner happened before the Lockout.). Iggy responded back by saying that he hopes there will be hockey and that maybe one day before he retire's, he would like to play for the Oilers for 1 season and retire there.

Since Iginla is from Edmonton, I guess it does make sense that he wants to play for the Oilers for a season and retire, he did not mention anything about trying to a win a cup there, just wanted to retire as an Oilers.

And since Iggy is a UFA this season, does he peace out and sign with Edmonton?

Remember, This is not coming from me, I am just quoting what my buddy has told me.

Good story.

[Shin Pad]

I don't think that either of them are a "problem", however, the point where they are the players whom the team is built around, has passed. A lot of Flames fans think we should keep Iggy - like the Wings kept Steve Y, until the end of his career. The thing is, the Wings were still a very good team when they kept him at the end of his career. I don't think the Flames have that luxury.