First nations will blockade roads as part of 'Idle No More' protest

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by BBQorMILDEW

Could you imagine if it was a bunch of Muslim's blocking the roads?


Then we'd actually be hearing about racism.

In my experience (which is of course hardly scientific), in Canada, there is far more racism directed, and tolerated, towards first nations than towards muslims. Islamophobia seems to be rare in Canada (although, admittedly, I've only ever lived in urban areas in Canada [if one can consider Regina urban I suppose].)

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

The average Canadian would be living in Poverty if it weren't for cheap and available credit.

Difference is, the average Canadian has access to cheap and available credit because we have jobs and a work ethic / desire to work.

If natives had the same work ethic / desire to work and lived off the reserve they would enjoy the same benefits.

Where is Vulcan when you need him?

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

If natives had the same work ethic / desire to work and lived off the reserve they would enjoy the same benefits.

Possibilities:
1. Total moron;
2. Really epic troll-baiting of Vulcan;
3. Vulcan as alias posting racist garbage so as to have something to complain about.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well I think Vulcan feels somewhat validated by 1st Land's post.

[comrade]

So everyone can agree that 1stLand's statement, at least, is racist.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Possibilities:
1. Total moron;
2. Really epic troll-baiting of Vulcan;
3. Vulcan as alias posting racist garbage so as to have something to complain about.

The following post suggests that he is from Edmonton, thereby confirming possibility 1.

Originally Posted by 1stLand

As a person who pays property tax in Edmonton, I am disappointed with the funding shortage. Who is going to make this up? The City or The Province?

One of the two. I am sure.

Not the Billionaire owner.

[Rerun]

If 1stLand is racist, then is Clarence Louie racist?

They basically are saying the same thing.

Chief Clarence Louie, Osoyoos BC speaking in Northern Alberta :

Speaking to a large aboriginal conference and some of the attendees, including a few who hold high office, have straggled in.

'I can't stand people who are late, he says into the microphone. Indian Time doesn't cut it. '
Some giggle, but no one is quite sure how far he is going to go. Just sit back and listen:

'My first rule for success is Show up on time.'
'My No. 2 rule for success is follow Rule No. 1.'
'If your life sucks, it's because you suck.'
'Quit your sniffling.'
'Join the real world. Go to school, or get a job.'
'Get off of welfare. Get off your butt.'

He pauses, seeming to gauge whether he dare, then does.
'People often say to me, How you doin'? Geez I'm working with Indians what do you think?'
Now they are openly laughing ..... applauding. Clarence Louie is everything that was advertised and more.

'Our ancestors worked for a living, he says. So should you.'

He is, fortunately, aboriginal himself. If someone else stood up and said these things - the white columnist standing there with his mouth open, for example - you'd be seen as a racist. Instead, Chief Clarence Louie is seen, increasingly, as one of the most interesting and innovative native leaders in the country even though he avoids national politics.

He has come here to Fort McMurray because the aboriginal community needs, desperately, to start talking about economic development and what all this multibillion-dollar oil madness might mean, for good and for bad.

Clarence Louie is chief and CEO of the Osoyoos Band in British Columbia's South Okanagan. He is 44 years old, though he looks like he would have been an infant when he began his remarkable 20-year-run as chief.. He took a band that had been declared bankrupt and taken over by Indian Affairs and he has turned in into an inspiration.

In 2000, the band set a goal of becoming self-sufficient in five years. They're there.

The Osoyoos, 432 strong, own, among other things, a vineyard, a winery, a golf course and a tourist resort, and they are partners in the Baldy Mountain ski development. They have more businesses per capita than any other first nation in Canada.

There are not only enough jobs for everyone, there are so many jobs being created that there are now members of 13 other tribal communities working for the Osoyoos. The little band contributes $40-million a year to the area economy.

Chief Louie is tough. He is as proud of the fact that his band fires its own people as well as hires them. He has his mottos posted throughout the Rez. He believes there is no such thing as consensus, that there will always be those who disagree. And, he says, he is milquetoast compared to his own mother when it comes to how today's lazy aboriginal youth, almost exclusively male, should be dealt with.

Rent a plane, she told him, and fly them all to Iraq. Dump'em off and all the ones who make it back are keepers. Right on, Mom.
The message he has brought here to the Chipewyan, Dene and Cree who live around the oil sands is equally direct: 'Get involved, create jobs and meaningful jobs, not just window dressing for the oil companies.'

'The biggest employer,' he says, 'shouldn't be the band office.'

He also says the time has come to get over it. 'No more whining about 100-year-old failed experiments.' 'No foolishly looking to the Queen to protect rights.'

Louie says aboriginals here and along the Mackenzie Valley should not look at any sharing in development as rocking-chair money but as investment opportunity to create sustainable businesses. He wants them to move beyond entry-level jobs to real jobs they earn all the way to the boardrooms. He wants to see business manners develop: showing up on time, working extra hours. The business lunch, he says, should be drive through, and then right back at it.

'You're going to lose your language and culture faster in poverty than you will in economic development', he says to those who say he is ignoring tradition.

Tough talk, at times shocking talk given the audience, but on this day in this community, they took it and, judging by the response, they loved it.

Eighty per cent like what I have to say, Louie says, twenty per cent don't. I always say to the 20 per cent, 'Get over it.' 'Chances are you're never going to see me again and I'm never going to see you again' 'Get some counseling.'

The first step, he says, is all about leadership. He prides himself on being a stay-home chief who looks after the potholes in his own backyard and wastes no time running around fighting 100-year-old battles.

'The biggest challenge will be how you treat your own people.'

'Blaming government? That time is over.'

[Minnie]

Isn't there already reparations for the residential school stuff? And, the sexual abuse/physical abuse that happened there isn't unique to the FN. Plenty of people have suffered that same sort of thing at religious schools. I never got it from a religious school (given enough time in one I have no doubt it would have occurred), but I dealt with it plenty from the religious standpoint, nonetheless - molested twice, was physically/mentally/emotionally abused quite severely, and on and on it went. In general, people need to stop using it to define their world - my SIL uses it to be a general hosebag. No. Quit letting it define you - it happened to you, it is not who you are. Quit using it as a reason for every bad choice you make, every stupid thing you do. Once is a mistake, twice may be a coincidence, three times and it's a choice.

I could do stupid #### like drink and drug, to forget or attempt to. But you don't forget - it is always with you but adding to that by choosing to drink, etc? It accomplishes nothing except to give a person another excuse to "have it bad." My sister in law likes to throw her past in our faces when she misbehaves/goes on a tear - "but you don't know how baaaaad my life was!" - nope, probably we don't know the nitty gritties - but guess what? Everyone has a story - everyone. Change the title. Bad life does not equal you getting away with being a turdbomb.

I get that the FN got a raw deal with the residential schools. But that isn't this generation. Its not their story - quit using it - and get some concrete #### together to define this movement and make it make sense to everyone - this spidering out of issues could go on forever and bogs the whole thing down into a pit of muck no one can see into and accomplishes nothing. Pick some specific points and work out from there. Not everything can be fixed this time out. And you know, if reparations have already been made somewhere, quit pushing for more. In the real world, one can't keep returning to court to sue someone for damages - the judgement is made and when the amount is finalized that's it - can't go back to the judge later and say hey I know we already got X amount for offense Y but yeah, now I think I should get this much more for the same thing you've already ruled on."

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Rerun

If 1stLand is racist, then is Clarence Louie racist?

They basically are saying the same thing.

Well is he painting every native with the same brush or is he addressing people who are looking for a hand out, don't work, don't go to school etc.? There's a joke there that strays into that territory, but otherwise I'd say he's talking about people who choose not to work etc., not about natives in general. Criticizing behavior because of the behavior is different than criticizing people based upon their race.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Makarov

In my experience (which is of course hardly scientific), in Canada, there is far more racism directed, and tolerated, towards first nations than towards muslims. Islamophobia seems to be rare in Canada (although, admittedly, I've only ever lived in urban areas in Canada [if one can consider Regina urban I suppose].)

Yeah, there's still a lot of casual racism towards First Nations people that's totally acceptable in a some circles in Canada. Not raging hatred or anything like that, but more just buying into bad stereotypes and general ignorance. If Canadians saw Americans talking about minorities there in the same way they'd probably laugh at their ignorance, but it can be harder to pick up on your own culture's biases.

Not necessarily referring to stuff in this thread as it's been mostly reasonable (though there have been a couple of borderline things), just a general observation. As you say, there is a definitely a tolerance of a tinge of racism towards First Nations in Canada that there isn't towards other visible minorities.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Yeah, there's still a lot of casual racism towards First Nations people that's totally acceptable in a some circles in Canada. Not raging hatred or anything like that, but more just buying into bad stereotypes and general ignorance. If Canadians saw Americans talking about minorities there in the same way they'd probably laugh at their ignorance, but it can be harder to pick up on your own culture's biases.

Not necessarily referring to stuff in this thread as it's been mostly reasonable (though there have been a couple of borderline things), just a general observation. As you say, there is a definitely a tolerance of a tinge of racism towards First Nations in Canada that there isn't towards other visible minorities.

Every group has experienced some form of racism...

With Natives it generally seems to have something to do with work ethic and alcoholism.
With the Irish, they again, have been portrayed in the past as drunks.
With Jews, its usually something to do with money.
With Catholics... its the Pope.
With Blacks... its.... just too many to list.
With the French.... well we won't go there.
With the Chinese... its their driving ability.
and the list goes on.

Nothing special about First Nations people.

[1stLand]

"If natives had the same work ethic / desire to work and lived off the reserve they would enjoy the same benefits."

I think I painted everyone with the same brush with that statement and it was a bad judgement call.

What I meant was, if perpetually unemployed able-bodied natives had the same desire to work and live off the reserve, they would have the opportunity to better their lives.

I know plenty of native people that live on and off the reserve and are great people.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Rerun

With the Chinese... its their driving ability.

Pshh I don't think I've ever met an Asian that disagrees with this.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Every group has experienced some form of racism...

With Natives it generally seems to have something to do with work ethic and alcoholism.
With the Irish, they again, have been portrayed in the past as drunks.
With Jews, its usually something to do with money.
With Catholics... its the Pope.
With Blacks... its.... just too many to list.
With the French.... well we won't go there.
With the Chinese... its their driving ability.
and the list goes on.

Nothing special about First Nations people.

I have a tough time putting the Pedophiles United Church on the same list as those groups who have suffered gross injustices. Especially since the PUC were/are perpetrators of such injustices.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by evman150

I have a tough time putting the Pedophiles United Church on the same list as those groups who have suffered gross injustices. Especially since the PUC were/are perpetrators of such injustices.

I am also confused as to how a religion is subjected to racism...

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

What I meant was, if perpetually unemployed able-bodied natives had the same desire to work and live off the reserve, they would have the opportunity to better their lives.

You really don't see the problem here? Let me re-phrase what you are saying: "The reason that the perpetually unemployed able-bodied natives are unable to better their lives is that they have no desire to work or live off-reserve."

I know plenty of native people that live on and off the reserve and are great people.

"I have tons of black friends!"

Originally Posted by Rerun

If 1stLand is racist, then is Clarence Louie racist? They basically are saying the same thing.

But only one is actually native...

If you guys are baiting Vulcan please let me know so I can stop stating the obvious.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by evman150

I have a tough time putting the Pedophiles United Church on the same list as those groups who have suffered gross injustices. Especially since the PUC were/are perpetrators of such injustices.

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world and I am sure not all are pedophiles. Not supporting the church or organization is one thing, but to accept anti-Catholic discrimination as legitimate is another. It's like differentiating between the actions of a state and the people within the state.

It has been going on since the English conquered Scotland and Ireland, and to the wars with France. It was one more way to detroy any empathy for the enemy - make them out to be different than you. If we used the standards of today, many of England's actions towards Catholics would be definite human rights violations and even genocide in some cases. I don't see how you can use relatively recent scandals to justify that.

Besides, Catholics make up almost 30% of the planet's population, but i haven't seen any evidence that they are responsible for more than 30% of child abuse.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

"If natives had the same work ethic / desire to work and lived off the reserve they would enjoy the same benefits."

I think I painted everyone with the same brush with that statement and it was a bad judgement call.

What I meant was, if perpetually unemployed able-bodied natives had the same desire to work and live off the reserve, they would have the opportunity to better their lives.

I know plenty of native people that live on and off the reserve and are great people.

Well I think that's true for pretty much anyone who is reliant upon social programs to a substantial degree. People of any ethnicity that lack the desire to work are generally not going to have much in the way of opportunities, natives just happen to draw from different programs than other Canadians.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by valo403

Well is he painting every native with the same brush or is he addressing people who are looking for a hand out, don't work, don't go to school etc.? There's a joke there that strays into that territory, but otherwise I'd say he's talking about people who choose not to work etc., not about natives in general. Criticizing behavior because of the behavior is different than criticizing people based upon their race.

I don't think he is painting every person with the same brush, but he is generalizing. The problem is, some of those generalizations are routed in fact. I'll highlight this in particular:

Link

The report, which is based on census data, found that 58 per cent of on-reserve aboriginal people between the ages of 20 and 24 had not graduated from high school. Among all people across Canada, the comparable 2001 rate was 16 per cent.

Once the 2012/2013 stuff starts to trickle in, we will have a better picture of the landscape, but these facts and figures are fairly alarming. They should not be ignored either or simply brushed off as racist.

I don't want to seem to brush off the impact of residential schools, but the last ones were closed in Alberta 38 years ago, in 1975. At what point do people need to move on with their lives and begin their healing, I have heard numerous talks on the topic, a fair amount end in tears. It is clear that many have not reconcilled this to date.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Absolutely.

So "whiteys" (by whiteys I mean anyone nont FN) are beating FN woman more as a percentage than they are beating non FN women?

Assuming the job type and income level are factored in fairly as a % of the total population?

Do you have a link to any statistics. I assume since you replied "Absolutely" that you must have seen statistics somewhere for this.