NRA calls for armed police officers in all U.S. schools

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I love that we are irrational when you are argueing in favour of a status quo that kills 10, to 15,000 americans a year for no appreciable purpose what so ever other than a bit of deer meat.

Really? where was my argument? I believe I asked what measure of gun controls would you propose that would fix this problem?
I'm pretty sure I never said I was opposed to gun control or that I was for status quo.

So maybe by irrational I mean you put words in other people's mouths to try and prove your stance in a debate?

And for the record if you go back and read I never said you were irrational , I said it's hard to have a rational convo.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Severely limiting anything that Americans have had easy access to in the past isn't going to go over well at all.

I like to think I am a pretty intelligent and rational guy. I just don't see how outlawing most guns is going to solve or severely decrease this type of activity.

Well then, fine. Just keep doing what you're doing, but quit acting surprised when mass murders of innocent people keeps happening.

There is absolutely no other course if you want to keep the status quo. It is black and white.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Really? where was my argument? I believe I asked what measure of gun controls would you propose that would fix this problem?
I'm pretty sure I never said I was opposed to gun control or that I was for status quo.

So maybe by irrational I mean you put words in other people's mouths to try and prove your stance in a debate?

And for the record if you go back and read I never said you were irrational , I said it's hard to have a rational convo.

OK fair enough, so what are the benefits of gun ownership in the US?
I've listed deer meat/hunting in general.

What else makes 10,000 deaths per annum a reasonable cost.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

The Ar-15 was found in the trunk of the car

"The two pistols were found inside the school and a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle was found in the back of his mother's car in the parking lot."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz2FpB6ipWM

That story is from the day of the shooting; obviously some of the initial details are sketchy and turned out to be not true. Everything since then has made it clear that he had 3 weapons in the school and the AR-15 was the primary weapon:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/con...uns/index.html

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/12/16...anzas-victims/

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

OK fair enough, so what are the benefits of gun ownership in the US?
I've listed deer meat/hunting in general.

What else makes 10,000 deaths per annum a reasonable cost.

It's all about the 2nd amendment, Murica, fawk yeah.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

OK fair enough, so what are the benefits of gun ownership in the US?
I've listed deer meat/hunting in general.

What else makes 10,000 deaths per annum a reasonable cost.

Well I can't argue for anything that makes 10,000 deaths per year a reasonable cost. You're kind of leading the jury in this debate here aren't you?

Quick without googling do you know why the 2nd Amendment was put into the Bill of Rights? No you probably don't.
That would be my only other argument. It's probably a weak one in your eyes and that is fine but that means a lot to me and many Americans. I do agree something should be done but you can't just take away all guns.

As I said in my other post , I am not against Gun Control, I don't like the loss of innocent life anymore than any of you guys. I do think bringing up the 9/11 attack and the ensuing events is not in good taste here. I don't think they have anything to do with this argument. It's a whole 'nother can of worms.


Duff, It seems as if your blaming me for the gun laws? I am not saying we shouldn't do anything. I am in favor of a measure of control that would limit this kind of thing. I was simply asking what would you do and weighing the response on how I think it would be entertained here.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That story is from the day of the shooting; obviously some of the initial details are sketchy and turned out to be not true. Everything since then has made it clear that he had 3 weapons in the school and the AR-15 was the primary weapon:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/con...uns/index.html

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/12/16...anzas-victims/

on a side note:
I like how pundit's here completely bashed and tore apart fox news during the US election. I belive they called them ridiculous, stupid, and unknowledgeable amongst other worse things. However when you need them to prove a point you'll post it up because all of a sudden they know what they are talking about ?

First off, all the stories the day of the shooting were a bit sketchy. A lot of people didnt know what was going on and was reporting what they heard. I just googled guns used in the conn. shooting and posted the results. I had heard there was no assault rifle used but I wasn't sure so I googled it. It's a moot point here as I am in agreement the full auto and most assault rifles should have a lot more controls over them if not banned altogether.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Well I can't argue for anything that makes 10,000 deaths per year a reasonable cost. You're kind of leading the jury in this debate here aren't you?

Quick without googling do you know why the 2nd Amendment was put into the Bill of Rights? No you probably don't.
That would be my only other argument. It's probably a weak one in your eyes and that is fine but that means a lot to me and many Americans. I do agree something should be done but you can't just take away all guns.

As I said in my other post , I am not against Gun Control, I don't like the loss of innocent life anymore than any of you guys. I do think bringing up the 9/11 attack and the ensuing events is not in good taste here. I don't think they have anything to do with this argument. It's a whole 'nother can of worms.


Duff, It seems as if your blaming me for the gun laws? I am not saying we shouldn't do anything. I am in favor of a measure of control that would limit this kind of thing. I was simply asking what would you do and weighing the response on how I think it would be entertained here.

I always love the 2nd amendment arguement, since the founding fathers signed the constitution the US has for most of its history had slaves, in the 1920's decided that no one was allowed to drink alcohol, arrested and locked up anyone japanese in '42, blacklisted anyone with a sympathy towards communism in the mid 50's and, as a result of 9/11 locked up tortured and killed people without any due process, read its own citizans e mail and listened in on their phone calls without a warrent.

What ever other benefits guns have brought freedom from tyranny isn't one of them, in fact the US has been easily the least 'free' of the 'free world' through most of its history.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

However people that want to kill people will find another way to kill people.

Kinda makes me wonder there are any laws at all, really. I mean hey, if someone wants to do something illegal, they are going to do it anyway. What's the point of trying to slow 'em down?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Well I can't argue for anything that makes 10,000 deaths per year a reasonable cost. You're kind of leading the jury in this debate here aren't you?

Not so much leading the jury as proving a point. You can't argue for anything that makes 10,000 deaths per year a reasonable cost. No one can and as an allegedly civilized society that should really be the end of the discussion right there.

[HPLovecraft]

Lanza also used hollow point rounds. Why the hell are hollow points available to the general public?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Kinda makes me wonder there are any laws at all, really. I mean hey, if someone wants to do something illegal, they are going to do it anyway. What's the point of trying to slow 'em down?

I never understood that either.

"Well, people gon' be killin' people anyhow, so why would we make the easiest way to quickly murderize people even slightly more difficult? I don't understands it Cletus! No point in trying, some folks will never have family members murdered by guns but then again some folk'll."

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I always love the 2nd amendment arguement, since the founding fathers signed the constitution the US has for most of its history had slaves, in the 1920's decided that no one was allowed to drink alcohol, arrested and locked up anyone japanese in '42, blacklisted anyone with a sympathy towards communism in the mid 50's and, as a result of 9/11 locked up tortured and killed people without any due process, read its own citizans e mail and listened in on their phone calls without a warrent.

What ever other benefits guns have brought freedom from tyranny isn't one of them, in fact the US has been easily the least 'free' of the 'free world' through most of its history.

Well that's an opinion yes. I am not saying yours is wrong and mine is right. It's just one I don't fully agree with. I respect yours , it's hard to change the minds of people ( and me) when ever we were brought up with guns as a part of our life. I know this is the ole "I have owned many guns as have my friends and we have never shot anyone" argument but I guess I do kind of feel that way. Even though I agree with controls I don't think you will ever convince me that I should never be allowed to own even one gun.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Kinda makes me wonder there are any laws at all, really. I mean hey, if someone wants to do something illegal, they are going to do it anyway. What's the point of trying to slow 'em down?

I think you are taking that to an extreme. Kind of being errrr irrational arent ya?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Not so much leading the jury as proving a point. You can't argue for anything that makes 10,000 deaths per year a reasonable cost. No one can and as an allegedly civilized society that should really be the end of the discussion right there.

I will disagree slightly with you Res, if only to make a point to Nicker, far more than 10,000 americans die in road accidents a year, but cars bring so many obvious benefits that we are happy to pay that price.
Also with cars we have set into place a vast number of laws to at least minimise the cost, licensing, registration, car recalls etc.

None of this happens with guns and yet they bring less benefits to a society than pez dispensers as far as I can tell

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Well that's an opinion yes. I am not saying yours is wrong and mine is right. It's just one I don't fully agree with. I respect yours , it's hard to change the minds of people ( and me) when ever we were brought up with guns as a part of our life. I know this is the ole "I have owned many guns as have my friends and we have never shot anyone" argument but I guess I do kind of feel that way. Even though I agree with controls I don't think you will ever convince me that I should never be allowed to own even one gun.





I think you are taking that to an extreme. Kind of being errrr irrational arent ya?

The arguement is quite simple, if you give up your guns 10 to 15,000 of your fellow americans get to live.

[afc wimbledon]

Sorry if I seem to be ragging on you nicker, I respect you for argueing your point but there is no logical defence of guns in any society really, and it is only tradition that keeps them here or in the UK, and I say this as someone who has hunted and been around guns.

[nickerjones]

Look at the loss of life in another way that isnt gun related ? Before anyone says , hey your arguing for no gun control at all , you're an American Devil.... I am not. I'm just saying if we are going to place all this hate on gun , we should also place it on other needless vehicles of human casualty.

How many people in here drink beer? Drunk Driving fatalities were something like 120,000 deaths in the last 10 years in the US. This is more than the aforementioned gun death quote in the last decade ( 100,000 people in the last decade). I don't hear a ton of people saying there needs to be tighter alcohol laws?


So on that note AFC what benefit does alcohol have that makes 10,000 plus deaths a year seem like a reasonable cost?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I will disagree slightly with you Res, if only to make a point to Nicker, far more than 10,000 americans die in road accidents a year, but cars bring so many obvious benefits that we are happy to pay that price.
Also with cars we have set into place a vast number of laws to at least minimise the cost, licensing, registration, car recalls etc.

None of this happens with guns and yet they bring less benefits to a society than pez dispensers as far as I can tell

Wonder how many of those car related deaths are caused by deliberately aiming the car at a person and stomping on the accelerator though.

I don't think they are comparable.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Sorry if I seem to be ragging on you nicker, I respect you for argueing your point but there is no logical defence of guns in any society really, and it is only tradition that keeps them here or in the UK, and I say this as someone who has hunted and been around guns.

No , your arguments have been more rational and respectful than most people I have spoken with on my trip here. It's different cultures and , let's be honest , if they ban guns in America am I going to be Ok? Yeah I'll be fine. I mainly use any of my guns for hunting and I'm pretty sure even here hunting rifles are legal.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

I think you are taking that to an extreme. Kind of being errrr irrational arent ya?

Not at all. That's the logical next step. "People are going to find another way to commit murder if we try to control _______, so why control ________?"

Fill in the blank.

Examples:

Grenades. Nerve gas. Guns. Hit and run.

Any option will work, with the "they'll do it anyway" rationale.