These videos are obvioulsy slanted, but they do serve a purpose in drawing attention to the fact that it's not just as simple as "Israelis invaded and stole the natives land".
A few facts that often get overlooked:
1) The arab migration to the region around 1850-1949 was also quite large. The UN invented rules to define Palestinian refugees than are different from all other rules regarding refugees. Anyone who had lived in what is now Israel for two years or any of their descendants is defined as a Palestinian refugee. This includes all migrant workers, new immigrants, etc...
2) Jews were actively denied property rights in the Ottoman empire for hundred of years. Of course, they owned less land the muslims in the region. On top of this throughout the 1700s and 1800s there were riots, progroms, etc.. that drove the Jewish population out of Jerusalem and what is now Israel.
3) Despite the above, if you look at the population history of Jerusalem, Jews made up a majority in Jerusalem since about 1835:
The population of Jerusalem did not consistently rise about 20k until the very late 1800s, despite having historical populations of up to 1 million. That area is now home to close to 2 million people. The land was, in fact, largely depopulated and abandoned until zionists returned to it.
In 1949, Jordan invaded East Jerusalem. Every Jew was removed from the area and the Jewish section of the old city was demolished. Israel regained control of the region in 1967.
Currently, most of the "settlements" are in the area around Jerusalem. I honestly, cannot see a single reason for why the area around Jerusalem should be considered a solely Palestinian area that Jews should be barred from settling in. Israel has a population of over 1.5 million Jews living within its borders. A Jewish population should be allowed to live in the West Bank, particularly in the area around Jerusalem.
The info in that link looks extremely shoddy. How is it that the Muslim population decreases between 1882 by 1,000 and the Christian population dramatically increases by around 9,000? Then the following period the Christian population decreases again? Also, remember, Christian and Muslim populations are both Palestinian, so if you were to take these numbers as fact, Jews don't really have a majority until around 1931, when the Zionist movement picked up steam. Add in the fact that Palestinian society was mostly agricultural in the 1700s/1800s, so you might not get an accurate read on the population in the region looking at these numbers.
If the Palestinian leadership will say unequivocally to its people that it recognizes Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people, I will be ready to convene my government and request a further suspension
So basically, please admit you're wrong, admit that the land we've already taken from your people is ours, and I'll see what I can do about suspending (delaying) more settlement approvals.
If they'd come out with a compete settlement suspention already approved by government, it probably would have been taken more seriously.
So basically, please admit you're wrong, admit that the land we've already taken from your people is ours, and I'll see what I can do about suspending (delaying) more settlement approvals.
If they'd come out with a compete settlement suspention already approved by government, it probably would have been taken more seriously.
I think you're reading into this a lot... of course there is no guarantee of final borders or the final solution, but the bottom line is that the Israeli's did suspend settlements for 10 months, with offers of longer and they never recieved anything from the Palestinian side. More rockets, no official regocnition of a valid Jewish state.
Basically it just underlines the fact that Hamas seems to use whatever points they can to justify a violent campaign against jewish life.
I think you're reading into this a lot... of course there is no guarantee of final borders or the final solution, but the bottom line is that the Israeli's did suspend settlements for 10 months, with offers of longer and they never recieved anything from the Palestinian side. More rockets, no official regocnition of a valid Jewish state.
Basically it just underlines the fact that Hamas seems to use whatever points they can to justify a violent campaign against jewish life.
Fair enough. You just have to admit that it was a pretty weak offer, with no room for compromise or negotiation. However, I agree with you in the sense that Hamas at this point obvisouly isn't into a diplomatic solution. Not that they've demonstrated, anyway. Scary.
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyah
I never heard anything about that. Can you provide a link or a source? I did hear of Israel approval of massive hotels in the West Bank as early as this past August though. Also in July:
This. One thing that irks me about this current situation is that Israel has done nothing constructive with five years of relative peace from the West Bank (some people have even deemed it an "historic" peace). At this moment in time, the West Bank and Gaza are in tremendously different situations.
Gaza, being the tiny, open-air prison camp that it is, is far more volatile and poor than the WB, and as such is much more inclined to have Hamas and extremist elements do stupid things like fire rockets at Tel Aviv.
But the problem is, the last five years of peace from the WB has produced nothing but losses for the Palestinians in the WB. More settlements have been constructed (quite a few more, actually), Israel has continued to expand new neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem, and has continued to divert water away from the WB for large agricultural projects.
So Abbas has reigned in the militants in the WB for the time-being, and seems like a relatively good partner with which to do something constructive. Problem is, all he has to show to the WB populace for their relative calm are more settlements and a weaker position in the WB.
To defeat Hamas' support in Gaza, the PA must be able to point to some kind of success that comes from restraint and peace. Unfortunately, what they have to point to in the WB is quite depressing.
The Following User Says Thank You to AltaGuy For This Useful Post:
I think you're reading into this a lot... of course there is no guarantee of final borders or the final solution, but the bottom line is that the Israeli's did suspend settlements for 10 months, with offers of longer and they never recieved anything from the Palestinian side. More rockets, no official regocnition of a valid Jewish state.
Basically it just underlines the fact that Hamas seems to use whatever points they can to justify a violent campaign against jewish life.
Thing is though, there hasn't been an attack on Israel from the West Bank since possibly Yasser Arafat's days (not 100% sure about this), yet Israel continues to build settlements there. Gaza has been relentless in attacking Israel since Hamas took control, and what do they get? Removal of all Israeli settlements from Gaza. I don't know, if I was living in Gaza, it would be tough not to support those guys, however destructive they may be.
If the Palestinians saw a real concerted effort by the Israelis towards a lasting peace, I'm sure they would lay down their arms. However, at the moment, it seems as though more is getting done by killing Israelis (as well as themselves).
This. One thing that irks me about this current situation is that Israel has done nothing constructive with five years of relative peace from the West Bank (some people have even deemed it an "historic" peace). At this moment in time, the West Bank and Gaza are in tremendously different situations.
Gaza, being the tiny, open-air prison camp that it is, is far more volatile and poor than the WB, and as such is much more inclined to have Hamas and extremist elements do stupid things like fire rockets at Tel Aviv.
But the problem is, the last five years of peace from the WB has produced nothing but losses for the Palestinians in the WB. More settlements have been constructed (quite a few more, actually), Israel has continued to expand new neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem, and has continued to divert water away from the WB for large agricultural projects.
So Abbas has reigned in the militants in the WB for the time-being, and seems like a relatively good partner with which to do something constructive. Problem is, all he has to show to the WB populace for their relative calm are more settlements and a weaker position in the WB.
To defeat Hamas' support in Gaza, the PA must be able to point to some kind of success that comes from restraint and peace. Unfortunately, what they have to point to in the WB is quite depressing.
Could you quantify some of this? How many more settlements have been constructed? How much water has been diverted?
I know it's impossible but how do you quantify the amount of life that has been saved during peace time Or further how can anyone guarantee that any of the above settlements wouldn't have happened during war time?
I think it's really sad that people can honestly argue supporting terrorism and perpetual war is a better option than political wrangling over border issues or water use. That happens in much of the world everyday but you don't see such broad support for attacking civilians.
The info in that link looks extremely shoddy. How is it that the Muslim population decreases between 1882 by 1,000 and the Christian population dramatically increases by around 9,000? Then the following period the Christian population decreases again? Also, remember, Christian and Muslim populations are both Palestinian, so if you were to take these numbers as fact, Jews don't really have a majority until around 1931, when the Zionist movement picked up steam. Add in the fact that Palestinian society was mostly agricultural in the 1700s/1800s, so you might not get an accurate read on the population in the region looking at these numbers.
I don't disagree that the numbers are anything but exact. If you read the entire wiki article, you'll see it points out there was a lot of incentive to exagerate or downplay numbers based largely on tax consequences. However, my more crucial point that the area was far from a built up Palestinian area that was taken over by Jews stands.
Also, the Christians in old Jerusalem were mostly Greek Orthodox and Aremenian. They are considered a distinct ethnicity from both the Palestinians and Jews, as they are considered of Armenian and Greek descent.
Could you quantify some of this? How many more settlements have been constructed? How much water has been diverted?
Quote:
The number of Jewish settlers in the West Bank grew by more than 15,000 in the past year to reach a total that exceeds 350,000 for the first time and has almost doubled in the past 12 years.
Figures from Israel's population registry show a 4.5% increase in the past 12 months. Most of the newcomers moved into settlements that many observers expect to be evacuated in any peace deal leading to a Palestinian state.
There are an additional 300,000 Jews living in settlements across the pre-1967 border in East Jerusalem, the pro-government and mass-circulation newspaper Israel Hayom reported.
The populations of the big settlement blocs of Maale Adumim, Gush Etzion and Ariel were stable over the past year. Maale Adumim and Gush Etzion are expected by most diplomats and negotiators to become part of Israel under an agreement on borders, but the future of Ariel, which juts deep into the West Bank, is uncertain.
The Palestinians say settlement growth is strangling any prospect of a viable state in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. The issue is the main block to resuming negotiations with Israel. A 10-month partial freeze on settlement expansion came to an end almost two years ago, since when there have been no meaningful talks.
One Israeli politician predicted that the number of Jewish settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would reach 1 million within four years. At that point "the revolution will have been completed", Yaakov Katz told the newspaper.
Meanwhile, settlers' leader Dani Dayan said the Jewish presence in the West Bank was "an irreversible fact". Writing in the New York Times, he said: "Trying to stop settlement expansion is futile ... Western governments must reassess their approach to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They should acknowledge that no final status solution is imminent."
Instead, the international community should relinquish its "vain attempts to attain the unattainable two-state solution, and [replace] them with intense efforts to improve and maintain the current reality on the ground".
All settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal under international law. US state department spokesman, Patrick Ventrell, said recently: "We do not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity and we oppose any effort to legalise settlement outposts."
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_eoj
Could you quantify some of this? How many more settlements have been constructed? How much water has been diverted?
I know it's impossible but how do you quantify the amount of life that has been saved during peace time Or further how can anyone guarantee that any of the above settlements wouldn't have happened during war time?
I think it's really sad that people can honestly argue supporting terrorism and perpetual war is a better option than political wrangling over border issues or water use. That happens in much of the world everyday but you don't see such broad support for attacking civilians.
That's true, it is unfortunate. But settlement construction and water scarcity exacerbate the potential for future violence, and create disincentives for such periods for Palestinians.
Just some statistics on how bad 2011 was for Palestinians in the WB re settlements:
Thing is though, there hasn't been an attack on Israel from the West Bank since possibly Yasser Arafat's days (not 100% sure about this), yet Israel continues to build settlements there. Gaza has been relentless in attacking Israel since Hamas took control, and what do they get? Removal of all Israeli settlements from Gaza. I don't know, if I was living in Gaza, it would be tough not to support those guys, however destructive they may be.
If the Palestinians saw a real concerted effort by the Israelis towards a lasting peace, I'm sure they would lay down their arms. However, at the moment, it seems as though more is getting done by killing Israelis (as well as themselves).
It wasn't Yasser Arafat that stopped the attacks, it was the West Bank barrier:
Israel's settlements are now on their side of the wall. If you look at the route of the barrier, the vast majority of the West Bank (probably about 96% of it is on the Palestinians side). The Palestinians in the West Bank are cooperating with Israel, because their standard of life is higher than it's ever been.
It's also clear that the ultimate two state solution will involve a land swap. Israel will take some land around Jerusalem and also create a small barrier around Tel Aviv. Meanwhle, the Palestinians will be compensated with land in the North, where hte Israelis Arab population is very high. The major stumbling block here will be whether or not Israeli Arabs want to join a Palestinian state. There will be many who will refuse to give up their new high standard of living and human rights.
Your characterization that every Palestinian is being squeezed out is false. Israel is building only in a small area. And based on my previous post about the history of Jerusalem, there's really no basis for either side having an exclusive claim to the area around Jerusalem.
Israel's settlements are now on their side of the wall. If you look at the route of the barrier, the vast majority of the West Bank (probably about 96% of it is on the Palestinians side). The Palestinians in the West Bank are cooperating with Israel, because their standard of life is higher than it's ever been.
It's also clear that the ultimate two state solution will involve a land swap. Israel will take some land around Jerusalem and also create a small barrier around Tel Aviv. Meanwhle, the Palestinians will be compensated with land in the North, where hte Israelis Arab population is very high. The major stumbling block here will be whether or not Israeli Arabs want to join a Palestinian state. There will be many who will refuse to give up their new high standard of living and human rights.
Your characterization that every Palestinian is being squeezed out is false. Israel is building only in a small area. And based on my previous post about the history of Jerusalem, there's really no basis for either side having an exclusive claim to the area around Jerusalem.
I'm sure it was the wall as well as economic improvement that had to do a lot with what some say is a historic peace between the two sides. But, you also can't discount Fatah's improved intelligence and policing in cracking down on the militants in the West Bank. Since Abbas took over, Fatah has dramatically shifted from being a militant organization into more of a political party.
For us here in the West, it's easy to say "oh look, life is much better for the people in the West Bank since they laid down their arms". The point still stands though that Israel still builds settlements, diverts water, sets up checkpoints and still occupies the West Bank. Yes life has improved, I'm not arguing that, but for the people in Gaza, they see the situation in the West Bank and see it as a failed experiment. Lay down your weapons and you get more of the same stuff. To the people of the Gaza, they probably see the West Bank as a bunch of sell outs since Israel hasn't changed much in the last 10 years or so. Fire rockets at Israel and they remove all settlements. It also worked in Southern Lebanon, why won't it work for us?
I'm sure it was the wall as well as economic improvement that had to do a lot with what some say is a historic peace between the two sides. But, you also can't discount Fatah's improved intelligence and policing in cracking down on the militants in the West Bank. Since Abbas took over, Fatah has dramatically shifted from being a militant organization into more of a political party.
For us here in the West, it's easy to say "oh look, life is much better for the people in the West Bank since they laid down their arms". The point still stands though that Israel still builds settlements, diverts water, sets up checkpoints and still occupies the West Bank. Yes life has improved, I'm not arguing that, but for the people in Gaza, they see the situation in the West Bank and see it as a failed experiment. Lay down your weapons and you get more of the same stuff. To the people of the Gaza, they probably see the West Bank as a bunch of sell outs since Israel hasn't changed much in the last 10 years or so. Fire rockets at Israel and they remove all settlements. It also worked in Southern Lebanon, why won't it work for us?
I really disagree. I'd be willing to bet most Palestinians would rather live in the West Bank than the Gaza Strip. Hamas, despite winning one popular election, has done everything they can to destroy democracy in the Gaza Strip. They have systematically shut down all opposition. A pretty good documentary on the disallusionment with Hamas by Vice magazine
I'd also debate your characterization of the West Bank. As I previously stated, the new "settlements" are in confined areas of the West Bank. The majority of the West Bank Like I've already stated, there's really nothing about the history of Jerusalem that gives either side an exclusive claim to build in the area. The ultimate solution is going to invovle a land swap.
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
I'd also debate your characterization of the West Bank. As I previously stated, the new "settlements" are in confined areas of the West Bank. The majority of the West Bank Like I've already stated, there's really nothing about the history of Jerusalem that gives either side an exclusive claim to build in the area. The ultimate solution is going to invovle a land swap.
If you click on the "Peace Now" link I provide above, you can see a detailed map of the expansion of settlements in 2011. You are wrong about settlements being west of the security barrier, that they are in "confined areas". In particular the Ariel settlement and those East of Jerusalem.
As well, I disagree with your assertion that the Wall is primarily responsible for the peace from the WB - it is a reflection of a moderate PA. The Wall wouldn't prevent WB citizens from firing off hundreds of homemade rockets like Gaza is doing.
If you click on the "Peace Now" link I provide above, you can see a detailed map of the expansion of settlements in 2011. You are wrong about settlements being west of the security barrier, that they are in "confined areas". In particular the Ariel settlement and those East of Jerusalem.
As well, I disagree with your assertion that the Wall is primarily responsible for the peace from the WB - it is a reflection of a moderate PA. The Wall wouldn't prevent WB citizens from firing off hundreds of homemade rockets like Gaza is doing.
Pelestinians wouldn't be able to fire off the rockets in the West Bank due to the checkpoints. Although I agree the West Bank is less radicalized than the Gaza Strip, there are still most certainly elements in the West Bank who want to attack Israel.
Also, I did look at your link. The only settlement of more than few hundred peopel where construction is going on that is also not directly adjacent to Jerusalem is Ariel. Ariel has a total population of just over 18,000. As I previously stated, there were many Jews in the West Bank historically and prior to 1949. I see no reason, why the entirety of the West Bank should be Jew free. Although, in a lasting deal, Ariel will most likely have to go. Construction in one settlement is hardly the total destruction of the West Bank you are making it out to be.
Currently a lot of settlements are being tolerated as they provide a key security role in the region. They stop the rockets from hitting cities like Tel Aviv. Israel despite building up settlemetns around Jerusalem has also taken down settlements in the outer areas of the West Bank:
The link you provided is also out of date. The Israeli government has frozen consruction in many of the outlying settlements. I haven't checked all of the examples in your link, but they list Brukhin as an example of an expanding settlement, when in fact all building there has been frozen:
I swear its so hard to find honest and truthful stuff in this conflict. I have a friend whom I respect posting this in regards to my comments about rocket fire by Palastine...
