Have the federal Tories been corrupted by power?

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

The Liberals negotiated, negotiated and negotiated with the NDP until they had a workable budget that the NDP said that they would not oppose. They didn't get anywhere near what they wanted and for that reason, they all abstained from voting for the budget.

True but right now the Libs are only one seat short of a majority and are dealing from a position of strength. For the opposition to take a government that strong down on their first budget they would probably suffer a backlash from voters who want stability. In a PR system the Libs would only have 41 seats compared to the NDP's 25 seats, you would have seen a vastly different negotiation and probably tax increases and/or spending increases that Ontario cannot afford.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

He didn't give "too much power" to the third party. The NDP most certainly didn't get anywhere near what they wanted for a budget.

Again that would not have been the same budget or negotiation if the Libs only held 3 more seats than the PC's.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And it was Hudak who screwed himself from day one when he said he would not be voting for the McGinty budget no matter what.

Oh give it up, when has one of the two likely ruling parties ever supported the other. I suppose you were upset when Iggy (or Dion, or Rae) condemned the federal budget before it was even released.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

It was that stance that gave the NDP most of their positioning power.

I would guess that it had more to do with Dalton's terrible polling numbers.

[Devils'Advocate]

You are contradicting yourself. You say that the Liberals are dealing from a position of strength because of the number of seats they hold and that they have little positioning power because of their polling numbers.

As far as I'm concerned, whether you are 1 seat from a majority or 20, it makes little difference since parties vote as blocks. Their are two parties that can play kingmaker. And the federal Conservatives used both opposition parties to pass legislation, so your "give it up" statement is completely shot to h*ll.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You are contradicting yourself. You say that the Liberals are dealing from a position of strength because of the number of seats they hold and that they have little positioning power because of their polling numbers.

Well it is both. If the Libs were high in the polls they would be "governing as if they had a majority". Because their poll numbers suck the NDP has some bargaining power but not a lot. If Ontario had PR the Libs would have 41 seats, the PC"s would have 38 seats and the NDP would have 25 seats, in that case the NDP would have lots more influence.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

As far as I'm concerned, whether you are 1 seat from a majority or 20, it makes little difference since parties vote as blocks.

Usually that is correct but when a party is only 1 seat shy of a majority the opposition need to make a big statement by whipping all of their members to attend and to vote non confidence. When they are doing that against a government that just faced the voters and received a very strong minority, on their first budget, they risk pissing off the voters. If the NDP didn't fear that they would have probably taken out Dalton while the Libs are low in the polls and probably gained a substantial number of seats.

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Their are two parties that can play kingmaker. And the federal Conservatives used both opposition parties to pass legislation, so your "give it up" statement is completely shot to h*ll.

Every party that is the official opposition automatically opposes the budget. This is a product of our system where the opposition is supposed to be the government in waiting. Often in a minority situation the official opposition will allow the budget to pass because an election isn't going to change anything (or if they aren't ready to fight an electin) but they will still condemn the budget and howl that the government is on the wrong track.

Anyways, I'm sick of arguing this.