Texas dad beats 4-year-old daughter's alleged attacker to death

[valo403]

Originally Posted by First Lady

Yes, one I read today.

And yet you posted that she was "likely" bleeding yesterday???

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by valo403

And yet you posted that she was "likely" bleeding yesterday???

Yes. And I would still say likely. I stand by it. We don't (won't) know for 100%.

If you doubt it, fine. Everyone will have different perceptions.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by photon

And a pedophile would not get how you could possibly find adults of your preferred gender sexually attractive. That's what makes them pedophiles and you not one.

In general I would never condone killing in self defense, and while I don't know exactly what I'd do in that exact situation, I do know a couple of people that were molested as kids and their view on it leans more towards "icky" rather than "it's ruined my life", and they seem pretty well balanced and successful adults capable of relationships, so I don't know if I'd have a killing rage because of it.

But I can definitely see how it could happen.

I see where you are coming from, but what pedophiles find attractive is that they have a child's mindset. That they are innocent and have power lorded over them. Not their bodies. They wouldn't be attracted to adults that look like children. So it's not a sexuality, it's a rape fetish. Consent doesn't exist with children and that's what pedophiles like about it.

I get that treatment and understanding will help more than villification for non offending pedophiles and I get that it's not a choice. But it's not the same as being heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/pansexual which involve being attracted to sex with a type of person that can consent.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

I see where you are coming from, but what pedophiles find attractive is that they have a child's mindset. That they are innocent and have power lorded over them. Not their bodies. They wouldn't be attracted to adults that look like children. So it's not a sexuality, it's a rape fetish. Consent doesn't exist with children and that's what pedophiles like about it.

I don't think that's true for all cases.. just like not all attraction to adults is a rape fetish, neither is attraction to children. For some I'm sure it's a power/violence thing, just like with rapists who rape adults, but I don't think that's true for all pedophiles. The wikipedia entry for pedophilia seems to talk about different kinds and motivations, saying for example:

Castration, either physical or chemical, appears to be highly effective in removing such sexual impulses when offending is driven by the libido, but this method is not recommended when the drive is an expression of anger or the need for power and control (e.g., violent/sadistic offenders).[101]

It talks too about the diagnostic criteria and mentions some people are "true" pedophiles in that their attraction is the child, not the power.

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

I get that treatment and understanding will help more than villification for non offending pedophiles and I get that it's not a choice. But it's not the same as being heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/pansexual which involve being attracted to sex with a type of person that can consent.

I totally agree, kids can't consent so it's not equivalent and can never be treated as such in society, but the attraction itself is what it is, a sexual attraction. That the target can't consent is an artifact of society and how humans develop.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by First Lady

Yes. And I would still say likely. I stand by it. We don't (won't) know for 100%.

If you doubt it, fine. Everyone will have different perceptions.

I'd appreciate a link, as I am curious what the details are.

My issue with a bunch of this is how much is based on assumption and not fact. It shouldn't be about different perceptions, it should be about what actually happened.

[Senator Clay Davis]

No charges...

A young Texas father who beat to death with his fists a man molesting his 5-year-old daughter will not be charged, authorities said Tuesday as they released a dramatic 911 tape of the dad frantically pleading for help before the hired ranch helper died.

A Lavaca County grand jury Tuesday declined to indict the 23-year-old father in the death of Jesus Mora Flores, 47. Prosecutors said the grand jury reached same conclusion as police after reviewing the evidence: The father was authorized to use deadly force to protect his daughter.

Flores was killed June 9 on a family ranch so remote that the father is heard profanely screaming at a dispatcher who couldn’t locate the property.

“Come on! This guy is going to die on me!” the father yells. “I don’t know what to do!”

The tense, nearly five-minute 911 call begins with the father saying that he “beat up” a man found raping his daughter. The father grows increasingly frazzled, cursing and crying into the phone so loudly at times that the call often becomes inaudible.

At one point tells the dispatcher he’s going to put the man in his truck and drive him to a hospital before sheriff’s deputies finally arrive.

“He’s going to die!” the father screams. “He’s going to (expletive) die!”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...boV_story.html

[Wormius]

I, for one, will make sure that if I have any killin' to do. I'll make sure I do it in Texas or Florida where I can safely talk my way out of it.

I could even say that the person was raping my kids, that way my good family name doesn't get dragged into the papers or other media.

Those amateurs who push a family member off a cliff, or shoot them in a "hunting" accident need some learnin'.Facetiousness aside, am I the only one who thinks this is a dangerous precedent? Itusually takes months for a trial to determine whether somebody was innocent or guilty. This only took a grand jury 8 days. This is scary stuff.

And yes, if the guy was really raping the girl, then yes, sure by all means beat him to death. He deserves it. But this whole thing makes me leery of justice in the Texas / US.

[Azure]

I would think the evidence is pretty clear.

Not sure why you think they should screw around for months on end until they decide something.

The little girl was found with her clothes ripped off. There was more than like a rape kit done. Those findings weren't made public, but I'd imagine they proved that she was indeed raped.

What more do you want?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

I would think the evidence is pretty clear.

Not sure why you think they should screw around for months on end until they decide something.

The little girl was found with her clothes ripped off. There was more than like a rape kit done. Those findings weren't made public, but I'd imagine they proved that she was indeed raped.

What more do you want?

The article only says that the pair were partially naked when the the father arrived. A rape kit may not show anything.

Molestation can mean so many different things.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I, for one, will make sure that if I have any killin' to do. I'll make sure I do it in Texas or Florida where I can safely talk my way out of it.

In Texas, try to make sure your victim is a Mexican or at least a Latino and you'll improve your chances of getting away with it.

The hate most Texans I've met have for mexicans is shocking (to me).

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

In Texas, try to make sure your victim is a Mexican or at least a Latino and you'll improve your chances of getting away with it.

The hate most Texans I've met have for mexicans is shocking (to me).

The Alamo would be why Texans hate Mexicans.

[HPLovecraft]

Edit.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

A man who cannot lay the hammer down on someone threatening their family is a neutered slave. Men are in an unfortunate position these days, having to chose between protecting your family from danger or jail time.

I'm pretty sure the discussion isn't "should this man have defended his daughter with force," but "did the father go too far in doing so when he killed the man."

Yeesh.

You make it sound (in regular rhetorical mikey_the_redneck fashion) men have to sit idly by and watch their family get raped and/or slaughtered. Now, we both know that's not the case (at least, I sure hope you know that).

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by First Lady

Yes, one I read today.

Who says this in a discussion about a source and then doesn't actually link to it or name the publication?

Originally Posted by FirstLady

Yes. And I would still say likely. I stand by it. We don't (won't) know for 100%.

If you doubt it, fine. Everyone will have different perceptions.

There is either the fact she was bleeding or wasn't bleeding, there is no perception involved.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I, for one, will make sure that if I have any killin' to do. I'll make sure I do it in Texas or Florida where I can safely talk my way out of it.

I could even say that the person was raping my kids, that way my good family name doesn't get dragged into the papers or other media.

Those amateurs who push a family member off a cliff, or shoot them in a "hunting" accident need some learnin'.Facetiousness aside, am I the only one who thinks this is a dangerous precedent? Itusually takes months for a trial to determine whether somebody was innocent or guilty. This only took a grand jury 8 days. This is scary stuff.

And yes, if the guy was really raping the girl, then yes, sure by all means beat him to death. He deserves it. But this whole thing makes me leery of justice in the Texas / US.

So you're suggesting that any time there is an investigation, or even the potential for one, we should go through with a full jury trial?

If a grand jury doesn't indict there is no basis to go to a trial. End of story.

[Russic]

I did not expect that result. In the shoes of that dad I can't say I'd act a whole lot different, but I'd fully expect to go to prison for some period of time.

[rayne008]

From the article...

Veit, the neighbor, described the father as easygoing and polite — down to always first asking permission to search Veit’s property for animals that had wandered off the ranch, even though the families have long known each other.

Veit’s son was a classmate of the father’s at Shiner High School in a graduating class of about two dozen. Veit, 48, said the young father was never known to be in trouble.
“Just like a regular kid, went to dances, drank beer like the rest of the kids around here,” Veit said.

Shiner, a town of about 2,000 people about 80 miles east of San Antonio, revolves around the Spoetzl Brewery that makes Shiner, one of the nation’s best-selling independent beers. Even gas stations here sell it on tap.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by valo403

So you're suggesting that any time there is an investigation, or even the potential for one, we should go through with a full jury trial?

If a grand jury doesn't indict there is no basis to go to a trial. End of story.

Without knowing how clear the evidence was for allowing the guy a pass on killing an alleged child molester, 8 days seems kind of fast to determine that no charges should be laid.

This goes slightly back to one of my biggest fears, which is to be framed of a crime. And then to be dead and not be able to defend myself against the accusations, so that my family would be associated with that crime.

I am not arguing that the dad was wrong, assuming things really played out how they did. I am just not sure if it was investigated thoroughly enough.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Without knowing how clear the evidence was for allowing the guy a pass on killing an alleged child molester, 8 days seems kind of fast to determine that no charges should be laid.

This goes slightly back to one of my biggest fears, which is to be framed of a crime. And then to be dead and not be able to defend myself against the accusations, so that my family would be associated with that crime.

I am not arguing that the dad was wrong, assuming things really played out how they did. I am just not sure if it was investigated thoroughly enough.

Well you can't do much more than present to a grand jury, it's essentially a mini trial. I'm not sure how much more evidence could have been uncovered over time, it's not like this was a case where there was a lot of pieces to put together. At the end of the day the prosecution is going to present the best case it can, but if the evidence isn't there or the defense is strong enough there's very little else you can do.

[Ryan Coke]

Sounds like he was genuinely concerned for the accused condition. I'd like to hear more about a how long the beating was, but if it was a reasonable amount of force that just went wrong, then I am happy with the non-charge.