Transgendered Miss Universe Canada finalist disqualified

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Your arrogance that you'd assume to know about the trans condition is telling. You probably should try to speculate on others personal experiences.

Your attachment to the body aspect of trans people is telling. Trans people literally experience life as the opposite sex of their bodies. They have looked at trans brains and they more generally reflect the brains of the gender they say they are as opposed to their genitalia. What's most important for trans people is to get treated as the gender they are, and be able to interact with people as the gender they are. Hormone treatment are as much needed for the mental changes as the physical changes. They've been shown to reduce anxiety and depression in trans people.

Most trans live life actively opposed to their trans condition. Nobody wants to be trans. Most do everything in their power to change it. It's something you cannot control. Like anything else intrinsic to humans, it comes up no matter what the trans person does. Their gender is an instrinc part of their identity.

I like the idea that you can't ask trans people how they feel about gender dysphoria treatments because they'd be biased. Your unwillingness to let trans people explain themselves is telling in how you view them.

To compare it to body dysmorphia is stupid, stupid, stupid. Stop doing it. I will repeat that gender dysphoria is only partly about having the wrong body, there are many other aspects that also deeply negatively affect trans people.

Please just start listening to trans people. You do not know better than they do.

They don't though, that is the whole point of body dysmorphia, in the sufferers mind they are utterly convinced that their body is wrong and they need to change it, an anorexic on there death bed weighing 70 pounds utterly believes, feels and sees themselves as grossly fat and over weight, someone with BIID absoloutly believes that their leg or arm is not part of their body to the extent that they will lie down on a railway track and let a train cut it off, it is in no way different to a transgendered persons feelings.

[Rathji]

It is different.

Gender is a social construct, and as such is a product of our minds. If your mind thinks it is feminine gender, then it is. It's not as simple as an anorexic thinking they are fat, because fat is a physical state. Just thinking you are fat does not make you fat, but thinking that your gender is feminine does make you feminine.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Rathji

It is different.

Gender is a social construct, and as such is a product of our minds. If your mind thinks it is feminine gender, then it is. It's not as simple as an anorexic thinking they are fat, because fat is a physical state. Just thinking you are fat does not make you fat, but thinking that your gender is feminine does make you feminine.

Among all the body dysmorphia, is gender unique as a social construct?

Perhaps you could also clarify - is having a penis not a physical state as well? Would it also not be worth exploring why the mind feels that way? Once again, why bring the body to the mind only when it comes to gender? In every other situation is seems the treatment is the attempt to bring the mind to the body.

If you cannot answer I would appreciate that information rather than have the question ignored over and over.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Gender is a social construct, and as such is a product of our minds. If your mind thinks it is feminine gender, then it is.

If I am physically 5'8, but my mind thinks that I am 6'8. Am I 6'8? or does that only work for gender?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Would it also not be worth exploring why the mind feels that way? Once again, why bring the body to the mind only when it comes to gender? In every other situation is seems the treatment is the attempt to bring the mind to the body.

If you cannot answer I would appreciate that information rather than have the question ignored over and over.

Of course it is, which is why, I assume, that there is extensive physiological testing involved before one can even be considered to start the process. I am not a physiologist though, so can't give any details about that process. I am sorry.

Originally Posted by RyZ

If I am physically 5'8, but my mind thinks that I am 6'8. Am I 6'8? or does that only work for gender?

Gender and sex are different.

Sex is the physical state of a person's body (defined on the range from male to female).

Gender is a social construct that contains of a range of characteristics, social roles and self-identity that we have defined (on the range of masculine to feminine)that most times aligns nicely with the sex of the person. Women tend to act feminine and men tend to act masculine. Since this is how you act and think, this is defined by your mind.

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Among all the body dysmorphia, is gender unique as a social construct?

I think so yes, and the easiest way I can explain it is to repeat what I said above.

If an anorexic person's mind thinks they are fat, then are correct? No because being fat is a physical condition and it is defined by being heavier than a certain weight given certain characteristics of your body (height, sex, age etc). Their thoughts and mental state do not change this fact.

If a person has gender identity disorder, and thinks they are a different gender than the physical sexual characteristics their body has, are they correct? Yes, because gender is not defined by the sexual organs the body possess, but by the range of characteristics that person has, including desired social roles and how they self identify. Their thoughts and mental state define their gender, so it really does mean that they are that gender.

[SeoulFire]

So would you agree that 'sex' would refer to to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women and that gender is socially constructed roles, etc, that a given society considers appropriate for men and women?

In this context it still does not make sense to me that the socially constructed (ie arbitrary and learned) should take precedence over biology.

Sex is absolute (save rare conditions) while gender can change.

[Rathji]

I think either I have misstated and/or you have unintentionally avoided the meaning of my post.

I will assume it is my fault and just cut my losses and admit I am unable to answer your questions, simply because I do not have the time nor desire to rehash everything in this thread until you understand it.

[SebC]

I don't think it's an easy thing to grasp if you haven't experienced it or been close to it. I will admit that I'm not fully getting it either.

That said, this whole "gender is a social construct" thing seems like it could itself be a social construct. Who decided that? On what basis?

[Rathji]

I think that's the problem.

The concept gender is a collection of ideas that have been grouped, since they are tied so closely to biological sex, along the masculine-feminine scale. That's not saying that it is arbitrary and learned like SeoulFire seems to think, but the groupings are there because it works within the common social context.

I think the simplified way of saying it is:

People's minds define what their gender is and their body defines what their sex is. Sometimes those don't line up.

You want to call these people crazy for having a perfectly valid thought processes but that doesn't line up with their physical bodies. You can give them treatment to (try to) change who they are as people, but historically that hasn't worked. I think some people in this thread are claiming that it hasn't been tried, or maybe because the results were not there for the medical community to justify continuing that work they think that maybe they just didn't try hard enough maybe?

Sending these people into therapy to 'fix who they are' is like sending gay people into hetero-therapy because they are gay. It isn't a mental problem and they are not crazy, and saying they are demeans who they are as people. You can think that's a good idea if you want, and I guess that's your right, but that's pretty messed up IMHO.

[SeoulFire]

You are still walking around the assertion without actually addressing it. To lay out how I see this I think I should clearly define how I view gender and sex.

Sex - biological/physiological.
Sex categories - Male/Female, boy/girl, man/woman

Gender - refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.
Gender categories - masculine/feminine

So and individual or society may define gender as either masculine or feminine based on their actions as they fit into the social construct of gender. The individual then mentally re-categorizes themselves in a different classification system (sex) that influences but does not define gender. Therefore they are a different sex?

I am sorry but I am not clear how that last jump is made. If you accept that sex is defined by biology/physiology then it is clearly a jump that cannot be made.

Originally Posted by Rathji

....

If she presents herself as female and considers herself female, then she is female.

....

is a far cry from:

Originally Posted by Rathji

...

People's minds define what their gender is and their body defines what their sex is. Sometimes those don't line up.

....

if you accept 'male' and 'female' as sex categories. You seem to be blurring the lines between the two where convenient.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I think that's the problem.

The concept gender is a collection of ideas that have been grouped, since they are tied so closely to biological sex, along the masculine-feminine scale. That's not saying that it is arbitrary and learned like SeoulFire seems to think, but the groupings are there because it works within the common social context.

I think the simplified way of saying it is:

People's minds define what their gender is and their body defines what their sex is. Sometimes those don't line up.

You want to call these people crazy for having a perfectly valid thought processes but that doesn't line up with their physical bodies. You can give them treatment to (try to) change who they are as people, but historically that hasn't worked. I think some people in this thread are claiming that it hasn't been tried, or maybe because the results were not there for the medical community to justify continuing that work they think that maybe they just didn't try hard enough maybe?

Sending these people into therapy to 'fix who they are' is like sending gay people into hetero-therapy because they are gay. It isn't a mental problem and they are not crazy, and saying they are demeans who they are as people. You can think that's a good idea if you want, and I guess that's your right, but that's pretty messed up IMHO.

First I would argue that believing you are a woman when quite clearly you are a man is in no way a valid thought process, it is in essence a delusion, wishing you were a woman when you know full well you are a man is a wholly different issue.

People suffering from body dysmorphia are not sent into therapy to fix them, they are given medications that aliviate their thought process, if we could get away from the absurd allusion to homosexuality and find a pill that made someone who felt their body was wrong not feel that way and be happy as a man or woman we would be doing a hell of alot better than giving them a 1 in 4 chance of being happy after a long painfull operation and a life long need to take massive doses of hormones.

Of course this offends the LGBT community in the same way that there is huge outcry in the deaf community that we might be able to cure deafness. God forbid we can make people happy.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

You are still walking around the assertion without actually addressing it. To lay out how I see this I think I should clearly define how I view gender and sex.

Sex - biological/physiological.
Sex categories - Male/Female, boy/girl, man/woman

Gender - refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.
Gender categories - masculine/feminine

So and individual or society may define gender as either masculine or feminine based on their actions as they fit into the social construct of gender. The individual then mentally re-categorizes themselves in a different classification system (sex) that influences but does not define gender. Therefore they are a different sex?

I am sorry but I am not clear how that last jump is made. If you accept that sex is defined by biology/physiology then it is clearly a jump that cannot be made.



is a far cry from:



if you accept 'male' and 'female' as sex categories. You seem to be blurring the lines between the two where convenient.

You can't mentally reclassify yourself to change your physical body. In the context of what I was responding to, about referring to a person as male when they physical present as female, then I would of course use the female descriptor. If that was confusing to you, then I apologize, but I did not think a greater amount of detail was necessary in that post.

Let me rephrase it now, so you that you can understand what I meant.

If someone is presenting themselves as a biological female, and society were to accept them as having the normal traits, appearance and demeanor of a typical female, and someone were to refer to that person as a male then they would have violated the social norms appropriate to that situation.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

First I would argue that believing you are a woman when quite clearly you are a man is in no way a valid thought process, it is in essence a delusion, wishing you were a woman when you know full well you are a man is a wholly different issue.

A person who has typical 'female' thought processes is having valid thoughts, even if their body is male. Unless you are claiming that female thought processes themselves are invalid, then that's another story. The issues caused by that mind being in that body, are a totally different thing, and not what I was referring to at all.

People suffering from body dysmorphia are not sent into therapy to fix them, they are given medications that aliviate their thought process, if we could get away from the absurd allusion to homosexuality and find a pill that made someone who felt their body was wrong not feel that way and be happy as a man or woman we would be doing a hell of alot better than giving them a 1 in 4 chance of being happy after a long painfull operation and a life long need to take massive doses of hormones.

So we shouldn't fix them to conform, we should just alleviate their thought processes to they are more like the rest of us? Isn't that the exact same thing?

Of course this offends the LGBT community in the same way that there is huge outcry in the deaf community that we might be able to cure deafness. God forbid we can make people happy.

I agree, the LGBT community is a lot like the deaf community in that way. Doesn't mean we get to decide that who they are as people is invalid though so we can 'alleviate their thought processes' to be like us. There are many cultures where transgendered people are an important part of the community, such as the Two-Spirit denotation in native communities.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

A person who has typical 'female' thought processes is having valid thoughts, even if their body is male. Unless you are claiming that female thought processes themselves are invalid, then that's another story. The issues caused by that mind being in that body, are a totally different thing, and not what I was referring to at all.



So we shouldn't fix them to conform, we should just alleviate their thought processes to they are more like the rest of us? Isn't that the exact same thing?



I agree, the LGBT community is a lot like the deaf community in that way. Doesn't mean we get to decide that who they are as people is invalid though so we can 'alleviate their thought processes' to be like us. There are many cultures where transgendered people are an important part of the community, such as the Two-Spirit denotation in native communities.

I would be interested to know what contstitutes a typical 'female thought process', are we talking liking pink, a desire to ride ponies? seriously there is no such thing as female or male thought.

And no one is telling them to do a thing least of all me, I just question the idea that in some way gender dysmorphia is different from the various other forms of dysmorphia we are slowly learning about, that essentially gender dysmorphia is somehow 'right' where as anorexics are effed up and sick.

If gender dysmorphia is in fact due solely to an aberhent section of the brain and in fact they arn't actually a woman trapped inside a mans body but are suffering from a specific neurological condition people should be told that so they can accuratly decide what they want to do.

If someone has a some genetic condition that causes them problems in the world and we can prescribe them a pill and those problems go away that isn't 'invalidating them', they have already sought help, they are not happy with who they are, why would we choose to persue a form of treatment that doesnt fix the condition at all but superficially treats some of the symptoms with risky, painfull surgery that doesn't help a quarter of the suffer's at all and even in the rest rarely provides them with what they want in order to keep a political lobby happy.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Rathji

You can't mentally reclassify yourself to change your physical body. In the context of what I was responding to, about referring to a person as male when they physical present as female, then I would of course use the female descriptor. If that was confusing to you, then I apologize, but I did not think a greater amount of detail was necessary in that post.

Let me rephrase it now, so you that you can understand what I meant.

If someone is presenting themselves as a biological female, and society were to accept them as having the normal traits, appearance and demeanor of a typical female, and someone were to refer to that person as a male then they would have violated the social norms appropriate to that situation.

I should apologize as apparently I have not made my position clear. I know I was wrong to say "he" as all of the medical procedures and legal work was done in this case. She is legally considered a 'she' and that is how I should have stated it.

The past few posts, however, were not concerned with pronouns but why the sex/gender issue is set apart from other issues. The 'curing' a gay/lesbian argument is a totally irrelevant as attraction and sexuality have no physical or biological characteristics. The gender classifiers are also not important as I am sure the whole spectrum of masculine/feminine exists within the sexes of gays and lesbians (as it does within the hetero community).

Originally Posted by Rathji

It is different.

Gender is a social construct, and as such is a product of our minds. If your mind thinks it is feminine gender, then it is. It's not as simple as an anorexic thinking they are fat, because fat is a physical state. Just thinking you are fat does not make you fat, but thinking that your gender is feminine does make you feminine.

This still does not explain the jump to make the feminine a female and why it is ok only in a few very carefully controlled cases. The only things I can come up with is due to the political/lobbying clout of the LGBT community and from the medical side, simply because they can.

I believe that the medical side would love to take a crack at a number of issues but they do not have the support or backing of group strong enough to sway the politics of doing so.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

This still does not explain the jump to make the feminine a female and why it is ok only in a few very carefully controlled cases. The only things I can come up with is due to the political/lobbying clout of the LGBT community and from the medical side, simply because they can.

I believe that the medical side would love to take a crack at a number of issues but they do not have the support or backing of group strong enough to sway the politics of doing so.

Yeah, "Big-LGBT" is a huge problem in the political system

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Yeah, "Big-LGBT" is a huge problem in the political system

I do agree with the bolded part though, the community is firmly entrenched on many isssues (not just the correct form of treatment) and that will obviously cause political pressure in some areas.

So do they or do they not have relevance in politics?

[GGG]

Does anyone in thus thread feel like they are the right gender?

Do you catergorize how you think or respond to situations as male or female. As i read that account of the father thinking they were disconnected from their life I was suprised how much he identified a male way of thinking and a female way of thinking and a male way of being percieved by society and a female way of being percieved by society.

That level of thinking about the concept of gender doesnt enter my thought process. For me at least in my thought process there is no such thing as gender beyond the external traits. This is what makes it so difficult to understand the concept.

They should however not be discriminated against and should be free to live their lives as they choose to, though in the case of gender based athletic competitions i would think they should not be allowed to participate as the male becoming a female would leas to possible unfair advantages

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GGG

Does anyone in thus thread feel like they are the right gender?

i often feel like a lesbian trapped in a man's body

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

So do they or do they not have relevance in politics?

Again, you have taken a post out of context.

The community is similar to the deaf community in that internally there is divisions between what kinds of treatments are considered acceptable. External to the community though, the Deaf community has a lot more acceptance and actually has their programs at least partially funded by the government. Contrast that with the fact that the PC government a couple years ago removed all funding from GRS, so obviously the LGBT community doesnt have that much clout in that arena.