Transgendered Miss Universe Canada finalist disqualified

[Flash Walken]

It's ok, Erick, thinking a hot chick is hot doesn't make you gay.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How did you come to that conclusion? God is a fairy tale. Science is the only real truth. It's biology and completely natural why people are born the way they are. Some people can't accept they are short and wear platform shoes. Some people can't accept their hair color so they dye it. Some people can't accept their penis length so they have it enlarged. Some people can't accept their appearance so they get a nose job. Some people can't accept their gender so they change it. Is any of this wrong? Absolutely not but it's gone from simple things like shoes and hair dye to surgery and gender benging and going back to my original post it is not natural and humans are starting to cross boundaries that I'm not sure were meant to be crossed.

I think you've answered the ultimate issue. Science intends nothing but the random act of molecules and atoms interacting..... hence evolution.

Based on what you're saying she came out the way she did and has the right to choose.

[octothorp]

I have a hard time feeling sorry for her given that I've got an extremely cynical attitude towards beauty pageants in the first place. I guess the one aspect I do feel sorry for her about is that after everything she's been through, she'd still feel the need to be measured in such a competition. I don't want to second-guess her motives, but she should know better than anyone that there's far more to what makes a great woman than silly beauty pageant standards.

The way I see it, the vast majority of these women have had a significant amount of work, and the only difference with this particular individual is that while other contestants might have had their breasts, ass, cheekbones, and such modified, she had her genitalia modified as well. These beauty pageants have never really cared about what you were born as, only what you could achieve through surgery; making genitalia the one part of the body that you aren't allowed to modify through surgery for the competition seems silly and arbitrary. But as I said, I'm completely cynical about beauty pageants to begin with.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

it is not natural and humans are starting to cross boundaries that I'm not sure were meant to be crossed.

Many years ago many people said the thing same about inter racial marriage too. That boundary had been crossed now. It's the same thing with transgender I think.

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How did you come to that conclusion? God is a fairy tale. Science is the only real truth. It's biology and completely natural why people are born the way they are. Some people can't accept they are short and wear platform shoes. Some people can't accept their hair color so they dye it. Some people can't accept their penis length so they have it enlarged. Some people can't accept their appearance so they get a nose job. Some people can't accept their gender so they change it. Is any of this wrong? Absolutely not but it's gone from simple things like shoes and hair dye to surgery and gender benging and going back to my original post it is not natural and humans are starting to cross boundaries that I'm not sure were meant to be crossed.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, I think you are the opinion that people should just play the cards that they were dealt with. It's an understandable position to have.
You are correct that most of those conditions don't really affect life or death, and can be relatively simple fixes (dye hair, boob jobs,..etc)

However, for the transgendered population, for some of them it is a matter of life or death. Suicide and depression are very high in that population. Public perception is never on their side. They risk public destruction of their careers, relationships, and status in society. Despite all that, some of these individuals still make that leap to become who they feel they were meant to be.

I think if there was a way that they can become at peace with who they are mind and body, than it's something they should pursue. Just because it makes other people comfortable doesn't mean they have to spend their lives hiding who they are.

My 3 cents now,

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

WTH? Why did sexual preference even come up at all? What if she still like chicks? Are pageant contestants not allowed to be gay either?

[arsenal]

For those that are interested, here is a clip from 2010 when she was competing in Miss International Queen. Basically a beauty competition for transgender individuals.

Clip isn't terrible, just some bloke chatting with contestants who are wearing dresses. But if cleavage is considered NSFW in your area, you probably should watch it later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...PL1d3UI#t=477s

[Lobotroth]

So did (s)he lose her(is) virginity twice?

[CaptainCrunch]

The question is . . . would you even know until you received an invite to the Jerry Springer show?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How did you come to that conclusion? God is a fairy tale. Science is the only real truth. It's biology and completely natural why people are born the way they are. Some people can't accept they are short and wear platform shoes. Some people can't accept their hair color so they dye it. Some people can't accept their penis length so they have it enlarged. Some people can't accept their appearance so they get a nose job. Some people can't accept their gender so they change it. Is any of this wrong? Absolutely not but it's gone from simple things like shoes and hair dye to surgery and gender benging and going back to my original post it is not natural and humans are starting to cross boundaries that I'm not sure were meant to be crossed.

So you do you just think surgery and operations, maybe all medicine for that matter should be abolished because whatever happens with our bodies was meant to happen. Maybe if some kid was born with cancer they should just let it die. We can all walk around half-blind without glasses either because myopia is natural and we shouldn't try to correct it.

[Flabbibulin]

Science recognizes a sex binary in the human species. Our society, and the law to a certain extent, is progressively moving towards accepting human made alternatives. Although hermaphroditism is a very rare mutation that is occasionally seen in humans, I don't believe there has ever been a case of this mutation yielding an individual with two completely functional (in reproductive terms) reproductive organs.

Biochemical factors may have contributed to the the person becoming transgendered, but this person was ultimately born a male. Natural selection has not, as of yet, yielded a third sex in humans.

edit: edited as per HPlovercraft's suggestion...

[HPLovecraft]

People need to define whether they are speaking of gender or sex when discussing this, because they are two different things.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Lobotroth

So did (s)he lose her(is) virginity twice?

Not to single you out, because there is more than one occurrence of it in this thread, but this is a woman you are talking about here. If you walked up behind her on the street, would you say to your buddy, "Hey, check out his ass" or would you say "That guy over there has a nice rack"? Of course not.

Gender is a social construction. If she presents herself as female and considers herself female, then she is female. I am willing to bet her driver's license has an F on it as well.

Sex on the other had is biological. So physically she has taken enough hormones that her bone structure has altered, she has grown a (fairly nice) set of breasts. Her external body looks and is behaving 100% like that of a natural female.

The only real difference here is missing a couple bones and glands. I wouldn't even consider the lack of a functioning uterus and ovaries to be a valid complaint about her 'incompleteness' as a female, because would you even think to hint for a second that your mother, was not female, if she had a hestorctomy?

Of course not, that is ridiculous.

[Lobotroth]

The joke has failed, I will go silently into the sunset.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Actually, science is what recognizes a gender binary in the human species.

Nope.

I am going to assume you are talking about the sexual binary. If you are not, then disregard this post and instead replace it with that .gif of that guy smashing his head into the table.

Science fully recognizes the continuum that exists between the opposite ends of the sexual dimorphism spectrum. I could give you a few examples and peer reviewed literary citations, but this is easier.

From Intersex - Wikipedia

Intersex, in humans and other animals, is the presence of intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male. This is usually understood to be congenital, involving chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies, such as diversion from typical XX-female or XY-male presentations, e.g., sex reversal (XY-female, XX-male), genital ambiguity, or sex developmental differences.

From Chimera (genetics) - Wikipedia

A chimera or chimaera is a single organism (usually an animal) that is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction. If the different cells have emerged from the same zygote, the organism is called a mosaic. Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism.[1]

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Nope.

I am going to assume you are talking about the sexual binary. If you are not, then disregard this post and instead replace it with that .gif of that guy smashing his head into the table.

Science fully recognizes the continuum that exists between the opposite ends of the sexual dimorphism spectrum. I could give you a few examples and peer reviewed literary citations, but this is easier.

From Intersex - Wikipedia


From Chimera (genetics) - Wikipedia

Ya my mistake... I edited my post after realizing the mistake.

In this situation, we are dealing with a person that is transgendered... but, like many others, they have attempted to surgically alter their sex(the physical traits of their sex anyways)- not sure if that means we use the term transsex

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How did you come to that conclusion? God is a fairy tale. Science is the only real truth. It's biology and completely natural why people are born the way they are. Some people can't accept they are short and wear platform shoes. Some people can't accept their hair color so they dye it. Some people can't accept their penis length so they have it enlarged. Some people can't accept their appearance so they get a nose job. Some people can't accept their gender so they change it. Is any of this wrong? Absolutely not but it's gone from simple things like shoes and hair dye to surgery and gender benging and going back to my original post it is not natural and humans are starting to cross boundaries that I'm not sure were meant to be crossed.

God's not real, so here is an imaginary line defined by my own beliefs and prejudices that isn't meant to be crossed to fill the void!

[afc wimbledon]

I find it ironic that she is complaining about gender stereotyping within the context of an event that is wholly about confirming gender stereotyping.

This is like a black guy suing to join the KKK

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How did you come to that conclusion? God is a fairy tale. Science is the only real truth. It's biology and completely natural why people are born the way they are. Some people can't accept they are short and wear platform shoes. Some people can't accept their hair color so they dye it. Some people can't accept their penis length so they have it enlarged. Some people can't accept their appearance so they get a nose job. Some people can't accept their gender so they change it. Is any of this wrong? Absolutely not but it's gone from simple things like shoes and hair dye to surgery and gender benging and going back to my original post it is not natural and humans are starting to cross boundaries that I'm not sure were meant to be crossed.

If God is a fairy tale, on what basis do you define this boundary that was not meant to be crossed?

Genetic evolution is really the only option to the concept of God, and it pretty clearly allows for something like this, unless of course the Cliff Notes I read left out that section.

I understand that something like this might make certain people uncomfortable, but that discomfort is really illogical when you consider the facts as what they are.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I find it ironic that she is complaining about gender stereotyping within the context of an event that is wholly about confirming gender stereotyping.

This is like a black guy suing to join the KKK