Mainland China has got some issues

[Kybosh]

Way back when I lived in Sherwood Park, a bicyclist was hit by a vehicle and fell down a hill. This poor guy was very seriously injured and was crying for help for hours. Authorities estimated that about 100 people would have heard him from the path above, but nobody stopped or said anything.

[Ozy_Flame]

After extensive travel in Asia (including China), I have to say that I'm not surprised at this incident. There is definitely a cultural sense of "go about your business and don't bother anyone else" in that country, even if someone is in danger or needs help. The same applies to Japan.

Although a bad movie reference, I can't help but think of Jackass (the first movie) where the dude does the Chippendale dancing at Shibuya Crossing, and gets in people's faces. Passersby just ignore and act like nothing is going on. That scene, although incredibly stupid, does make a point about a "heads down" society.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Bystander effect? Wasn't there some lady in NYC like Kitty Genovese (sp? from what I read in freakonomics) or something like that where more than 15+ people watched the lady get stabbed repeatedly and no one reported it? It happens in more than just China.

I'm not disputing that there is an overall problem in China. I think the sheer lack of empathy, manners, culture and consideration in China has a lot to do with the backwards communist era policies and subsequent relaxation more than anything else. Chinese one child policies and subsequent relaxation of economic policies to allow for capitalism has created an environment of spoiled children. Parents and grandparents get vastly richer than the previous generations and their very few children get more and more spoiled/inconsiderate/less empathetic.

I spend a lot of time speaking with my mother in law about the cultural revolution and life before, during and afterwards. One thing she has spoken of frequently was how prior to the revolution families living next to each other would be very neighbourly and would share openly with each other and take care of each other, but that during the years of the revolution people learned not to trust anyone outside their closest family because you didn't know anymore what a person could say about you that might end up with you being shot, having your hair shaved off, being publically shamed or punished in some other way. I often wonder how responsible that is for the difference in thinking about family vs. others that there is now.

The article Pylon posted in the WRGMG thread was very good for this too.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Bystander effect? Wasn't there some lady in NYC like Kitty Genovese (sp? from what I read in freakonomics) or something like that where more than 15+ people watched the lady get stabbed repeatedly and no one reported it? It happens in more than just China.

I'm not disputing that there is an overall problem in China. I think the sheer lack of empathy, manners, culture and consideration in China has a lot to do with the backwards communist era policies and subsequent relaxation more than anything else. Chinese one child policies and subsequent relaxation of economic policies to allow for capitalism has created an environment of spoiled children. Parents and grandparents get vastly richer than the previous generations and their very few children get more and more spoiled/inconsiderate/less empathetic.

I'm pretty sure Freakanomics mentioned that story in an attempt to discredit the bystander effect. If I recall the story was spun to say that people didn't try to help when in fact the police were trying to focus attention away from the fact it took them so long to respond (due to cutbacks).

That's just a single example and as noted in the thread there are many instances of the effect being documented so I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

Terrible tragedy and there's no way I'm watching that video.

[Cowperson]

My wife's nephew was working the rigs in Nigeria recently.

His army escort was driving him through a large city when they passed by the corpse of a young girl on the side of the road, obviously struck by a vehicle as she'd tried to cross. She was laying there in the morning and laying there in the afternoon as they came back.

My wife's nephew wanted to stop and lend assistance, etc but the army guys refused, saying the custom was that anyone found on scene would likely be deemed to have responsibility by the police and secondly, the family might want to lay claim on them. Eventually, the corpse was taken away by family.

Different cultures . . . .

Cowperson

[mikey_the_redneck]

That's the long term effect of communism on morality right there.....

Those people are dead inside.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by secol

to be fair society in mainland china has turned into this because people have been known to "twist" their stories.....basically old people pretending to be hurt, and then if somebody helps them they pretend that the helper hurt them and sue. but getting rolled over by a car probably causes injuries that are pretty difficult to inflict by a man so argument doesn't really stand

This is true though, you make a good point.

In a place where people can easily get framed for anything and there is no justice system and it will cost alot of money to pay off an official in order to set yourself free... I wouldn't go anywhere near there either. It's just ingrained into the minds of the people there.

JohnnyB: It's easy for most Chinese to be outraged from afar and the so-called netizens to raise their voice behind a computer screen. But the fact that 20 people walked by and only a govenment employee dared to get involved tells you something. If the garbage truck hadn't passed by, 100 people would have ignored it.


And yes, communism kills people on the inside.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I spend a lot of time speaking with my mother in law about the cultural revolution and life before, during and afterwards. One thing she has spoken of frequently was how prior to the revolution families living next to each other would be very neighbourly and would share openly with each other and take care of each other, but that during the years of the revolution people learned not to trust anyone outside their closest family because you didn't know anymore what a person could say about you that might end up with you being shot, having your hair shaved off, being publically shamed or punished in some other way. I often wonder how responsible that is for the difference in thinking about family vs. others that there is now.

The article Pylon posted in the WRGMG thread was very good for this too.

Absolutely true, but I'm really wonder which of the two reasons (one child policy/cultural revolution) has more of an effect on the seeming lack of empathy amongst modern mainland Chinese. My grandma says the same thing before they fled to Hong Kong where the social fabric remained intact.

More than 30 million people died during the cultural revolution and the social trust between people were destroyed. Mao's communists pitted everyone against each other and really taught people to look the other way when others were dragged away kicking/screaming/killed. But did those parents pass on these traits to their children (who are more than two generations removed from those events) or are modern mainland Chinese this way because of the one child policy or a combination of both? I'm not really sure. Either way Mao's corrupted communism is responsible.

[Lobotroth]

If I remember correctly there was an incident awhile back in Toronto involving a streetcar. A guy got hit and trapped beneath the trolley and he was dragged for a few blocks before anyone noticed. I found it hard to believe that anyone, the driver included, could miss that happening. I wonder if it was a case of the bystander effect.

[kirant]

While we're on the topic of China itself, that's exactly how I've heard it from relatives. During the 40's to 70's, major shifts in the feel of the country occured and warped it to a major degree. Until recently, one side of my grandparents refused to return on the basis of most of China's citizen's exceedingly paranoid nature. They personally blame the Cultural Revolution. I think it's also due to a combination of male child preference and the one child policy, creating a culture of many children growing up extremely spoiled, especially young males.

Doesn't matter where you live...this world if f'd up. Seriously unbelievable. I wish I hadn't seen that. I hope the poor girl makes it and is OK.

Other reports have stated she died in hospital.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Absolutely true, but I'm really wonder which of the two reasons (one child policy/cultural revolution) has more of an effect on the seeming lack of empathy amongst modern mainland Chinese.

Hard to say. I think for older generations, the ones who grew up with the cultural revolution have the strongest sense of values and clear ideas of right and wrong whereas the younger generations live with much more moral ambiguity and emphasis on the pursuit and love of material wealth.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by kirant

Other reports have stated she died in hospital.

That's what I had most recently heard as well.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Hard to say. I think for older generations, the ones who grew up with the cultural revolution have the strongest sense of values and clear ideas of right and wrong whereas the younger generations live with much more moral ambiguity and emphasis on the pursuit and love of material wealth.

Don't forget that Chinese youth have grown up in the Golden Shield/Great Chinese Firewall generation. They don't know anything about the Cultural Revolution or Tibet or Tiananmen Square or anything!

They just know that they can make more money now then was ever possible.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I spend a lot of time speaking with my mother in law about the cultural revolution and life before, during and afterwards. One thing she has spoken of frequently was how prior to the revolution families living next to each other would be very neighbourly and would share openly with each other and take care of each other, but that during the years of the revolution people learned not to trust anyone outside their closest family because you didn't know anymore what a person could say about you that might end up with you being shot, having your hair shaved off, being publically shamed or punished in some other way. I often wonder how responsible that is for the difference in thinking about family vs. others that there is now.

The article Pylon posted in the WRGMG thread was very good for this too.

I was very cautious about posting a response in the gear grinder thread about that video, but it is a horrible reality in China right now. I do not think the Chinese are emotionless robots, but when you read this article, it almost makes what these people do justifiable. If you visit a site like liveleak, (which isn't for everyone because of its content) you will see weekly, sometimes daily examples of this effect. I think they need to look at serious reforms in their victim compensation system, or this is just going to continue to get worse.

I still see that video though, and I know, that if I saw a dying child laying in the street, I would take any risk financially or physically to save or help them. The last thing on my mind would be who my next paycheque is going to. That part I find perplexing.

Here is the article that explains the problems with the Chinese system of victim compensation, just messed up all around:

http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news16675.html

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

JohnnyB: It's easy for most Chinese to be outraged from afar and the so-called netizens to raise their voice behind a computer screen. But the fact that 20 people walked by and only a govenment employee dared to get involved tells you something. If the garbage truck hadn't passed by, 100 people would have ignored it.


And yes, communism kills people on the inside.

Well, it's easy for anyone to be outraged from afar about something. Same goes for people who see atrocities or poverty from afar and do nothing. That doesn't mean people aren't genuinely upset about it, but as points have been made people may feel there's too much risk in getting involved, or they have learned that to get by you don't get involved.

Yes it tells you something. What do you think it tells?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Bystander effect? Wasn't there some lady in NYC like Kitty Genovese (sp? from what I read in freakonomics) or something like that where more than 15+ people watched the lady get stabbed repeatedly and no one reported it? It happens in more than just China.

I'm not disputing that there is an overall problem in China. I think the sheer lack of empathy, manners, culture and consideration in China has a lot to do with the backwards communist era policies and subsequent relaxation more than anything else. Chinese one child policies and subsequent relaxation of economic policies to allow for capitalism has created an environment of spoiled children. Parents and grandparents get vastly richer than the previous generations and their very few children get more and more spoiled/inconsiderate/less empathetic.

I actually put a pre-rebuttal to that in the gear grinder thread. Incidents like the one you have posted are a once a year/decade thing in North America. Stuff like this is going on at a frequent rate in China. I remember seeing one video of a guy indiscriminately stabbing people on a Chinese street, and the people were just stepping over the victims, and going about their day like nothing was happening. It was just surreal.

But it is not just China. There are a lot of examples I have seen out of Russia, and those Eastern bloc countries as well. Maybe there is a correlation between ex-communist countries and this effect like Mikey had alluded to.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Well, it's easy for anyone to be outraged from afar about something. Same goes for people who see atrocities or poverty from afar and do nothing. That doesn't mean people aren't genuinely upset about it, but as points have been made people may feel there's too much risk in getting involved, or they have learned that to get by you don't get involved.

Yes it tells you something. What do you think it tells?

I think it tells simply that things are not worth getting involved in. Even a life of child. You're in China you're seen alot of stuff. You've seen car accidents.. you've seen someone jumping off a building and people just standing around watching it or even filming it.

The good sammaritan gets no reward in China and sometimes can be framed too. As I said the netizens can be outraged but if they were there, they wouldn't do anything right?

[Bill Bumface]

I can't believe she was alive after all of that, and I can't help but wonder if the first van didn't run over her twice, if the second vehicle didn't hit her at all, or if someone would have helped whether she would have made it.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think it tells simply that things are not worth getting involved in. Even a life of child. You're in China you're seen alot of stuff. You've seen car accidents.. you've seen someone jumping off a building and people just standing around watching it or even filming it.

The good sammaritan gets no reward in China and sometimes can be framed too. As I said the netizens can be outraged but if they were there, they wouldn't do anything right?

There's definitely a growing battle in the psyche of many Chinese right now between the practical and the valued. Loads of Chinese people do feel genuinely upset about a lot of the unethical choices they need to make, but continue to make them as they feel there is no choice. The expansion of social media (hindered though it may be) is giving those conflicted ethical positions more and more voice though.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The good sammaritan gets no reward in China and sometimes can be framed too. As I said the netizens can be outraged but if they were there, they wouldn't do anything right?

I have been elbow deep in the blood of strangers twice in my life as a first responder. You do not do that for a reward, you do that because it is the right thing to do as a human.