Bye bye Vipers?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Saint Troy

Took my kids to game this summer at Foothills, baseball was decent but the park is a dump. Tough to make a go of it without a ballpark, I think Okotoks proves that if you have a jewel of a park, people will support it.

Yeah, a jewel of a ballpark is half the battle. It also helps in getting the best ball players to play for your team. In fact the team is building 2 smaller ballparks next to Seaman stadium for the Junior Dawgs program. It's also hoped that 3 ball diamonds will allow Okotoks to host junior tournaments.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by Julio

-As for the Vipers, that's the ball I go to in the summer, both because it is closer to me and because I think it is a better brand of ball.

I'm very curious about this statement. You're actually saying that independent ball is a better "brand" than summer collegiate...I just don't see how it is at all...aside from the sprinkling of former MLB talent as a very cool draw from time to time, it's far worse on every level.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Dion

Yet the Dawgs are a very sucessful franchise dispite all the obsticles listed by people in this thread. They don't have anywhere near the population base to draw from nor transit and yet they draw an average of 2,300 fans to games.

I don't think anyone is debating the fact that the Dawgs are the more successful franchise. I, in fact, have stated that the loss of the Vipers will result in very few tears shed by Calgarians.

But, I would argue for Calgarians living North of Glenmore Trail, Foothills stadium is a more convenient option. Is it a better stadium? No. But would people in the north end of Calgary choose to go to Foothills over Seaman? If it were a nicer park, absolutely.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

I'm very curious about this statement. You're actually saying that independent ball is a better "brand" than summer collegiate...I just don't see how it is at all...aside from the sprinkling of former MLB talent as a very cool draw from time to time, it's far worse on every level.

It really isn't. The pitching might be a bit better in the WMBL, but it is more likely an illusion given that the hitting is vastly superior in Indy ball. Of course, once you get to the pros, anyone with a pitching arm is in affiliated ball. Both levels can be a complete gong show defensively.

In the end, both are pretty much the same thing. Indy ball instead of affiliated, and kids from smaller programs instead of the big schools. On the strength of play alone, I would also rank the pros higher, but mainly on the fact that older players are both more experienced and fully developed.

Presentation wise, however, there is no comparison. The Dawgs put on a far, far better show overall.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Julio

-Edmonton has publicly stated they want to bring AAA back...I just can't see the PCL going there. Much more likely to have the Jay's AAA affiliation move to Vancouver and play in an expanded Nat Bailey Stadium

Let's just say, if the PCL can find another Canadian market to go into (Winnipeg, Vancouver, Calgary), Edmonton will be a lock to get a PCL team. That's the only thing holding them back.

[Resolute 14]

Well, as much as I would love to see Russ Parker come in, find some business people willing to build a park and bring the Cannons and Trappers back, I think you are a tad optimistic.

While the dollar has recovered in value from when our teams left, the travel and weather problems remain. And frankly, so too does the attendance. Tucson is the only PCL market drawing significantly below what Edmonton and Calgary did. I think you would find it nearly impossible to find two markets willing to relocate.

I suspect the PCL is quite happy to remain all-American, unless the situation necessitates coming back north. And there is no real indication of that at the moment.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It really isn't. The pitching might be a bit better in the WMBL, but it is more likely an illusion given that the hitting is vastly superior in Indy ball. Of course, once you get to the pros, anyone with a pitching arm is in affiliated ball. Both levels can be a complete gong show defensively.

Defensively is where the biggest difference exists as far as i'm concerned. It's not even close.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

I'm very curious about this statement. You're actually saying that independent ball is a better "brand" than summer collegiate...I just don't see how it is at all...aside from the sprinkling of former MLB talent as a very cool draw from time to time, it's far worse on every level.

I think this is very much comparable to the AHL vs WHL discussion that I saw over on the FOI thread a few days ago...although I think it is more apt to be Junior A compared to the Central Hockey League.

As far as the aspects of the game, as Res said the pitching is all over the map, from very good to very bad almost in a heartbeat for both levels. Jeff Duda went from dominant as a starter for the Dawgs to .500 in the Golden League to very good in long relief in the Can-Am League, so I don't know how to rate that. I don't see the defense really being better in the WMBL...the Dawgs have more errors per game than the Vipers, although if it's not the same scorer making the decisions it's tough to compare that. I do like the long ball, and there is more of that with the Vipers than the Dawgs. And the sprinkling of guys who have done well in organized ball also appeals to me. Not that I think that the Dawgs play horrible ball by any means, but it just doesn't appeal to me as much as the pro game does.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Let's just say, if the PCL can find another Canadian market to go into (Winnipeg, Vancouver, Calgary), Edmonton will be a lock to get a PCL team. That's the only thing holding them back.

I will bow to your superior knowledge 'from the inside' on this, but looking at it I don't see Edmonton as a logical spot for the PCL unless Calgary would also get in, which I don't see happening at all. The PCL isn't a bus league by any stretch, but being 2 hours by plane from the nearest city is a long ways. Add in the border issues and while I see Vancouver as a possibility, although a stretch, I think Edmonton would be a very remote possibility.

[metallicat]

Edmonton has an amazing ball park, backed by an owner with very deep pockets. I don't think Edmonton is a stretch at all if the PCL does come back to Canada.

[Resolute 14]

Agreed. It's the whole "...if the PCL does come back to Canada" part that is the issue.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Edmonton has an amazing ball park, backed by an owner with very deep pockets. I don't think Edmonton is a stretch at all if the PCL does come back to Canada.

What the Edmonton Prospects of the WMBL? Surely they could fill that stadium with fans who like watching collegiate ball.

[Resolute 14]

Tried, and failed. And failed, and failed, and failed.

[TopChed]

Originally Posted by Dion

The Dawgs don't need to offer anything. They survive quite well drawing fans from the Okotoks area.

So they're doing alright, and thus there's no room to improve?

They're on the edge of a city with a population over 1 million people. Why not take advantage?

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Edmonton has an amazing ball park, backed by an owner with very deep pockets. I don't think Edmonton is a stretch at all if the PCL does come back to Canada.

Is Telus Field still amazing? I can honestly tell you my experiences with AAA ballparks is limited, but I don't think it would meet current PCL standards.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by TopChed

So they're doing alright, and thus there's no room to improve?

They're on the edge of a city with a population over 1 million people. Why not take advantage?

They are taking advantage. Calgary TV stations and print media report on the Dawgs often so it's not like they are an unknown sports team. During most home games one of Calgary's TV stations has cameras set up. The FAN960 does shows in the summer from Seaman stadium telling anyone who listens what a jewel of a ball park the Dawgs have and the high quality of ball in the WMBL.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Is Telus Field still amazing? I can honestly tell you my experiences with AAA ballparks is limited, but I don't think it would meet current PCL standards.

Telus Field was never amazing. It is a decent park, but nothing special. That said, there isn't any reason why it wouldn't be up to PCL standards given its capacity and luxury boxes. It would be one of the smallest ballparks in the league, but given Edmonton would likely only be in the same 4-5000 range it was before, that's no big deal.

IMO, the PCL coming to Edmonton, Calgary or Winnipeg would only happen if there were teams in a lot of trouble, as was the case when we got our first teams. With a new park, I could see Vancouver, but mainly just on the proximity to Tacoma.

[fundmark19]

You would think with the money in this city you could convince someone to build a retractable roof stadium so we can get pcl back. Make it multi purpose if need be. It can't cost that much to build it on a small scale

[TopChed]

Originally Posted by Dion

They are taking advantage. Calgary TV stations and print media report on the Dawgs often so it's not like they are an unknown sports team. During most home games one of Calgary's TV stations has cameras set up. The FAN960 does shows in the summer from Seaman stadium telling anyone who listens what a jewel of a ball park the Dawgs have and the high quality of ball in the WMBL.

So small marketing initiatives are enough to take advantage, but it's unnecessary to make transportation to the actual games easier for a large amount of Calgary's population? Fair enough.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

You would think with the money in this city you could convince someone to build a retractable roof stadium so we can get pcl back. Make it multi purpose if need be. It can't cost that much to build it on a small scale

FWIW, the ballpark built in Fresno for the Grizzlies cost $46 million in 2002, and seats 12,500. The park in Albuquerque was re-built at a cost of $25 million at the same time.

Keep in mind that a AAA calibre ballpark will seat a little over half of what the Saddledome does. These aren't major league facilities, but they are still huge. Building a new ballpark in Calgary that the PCL would be interested in would probably be north of $40 million without a retractable roof. I can't even imagine what adding a roof would cost.