Bicyclists suck!

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by pylon

but a lot of drivers are all rage mad because my $1600 ten speed, is giving them the perception that I am getting there quicker than you $45000, 450 HP Mustang. In tight traffic in the core, maybe.. probably, but trust me, after it is all said and done, the car will beat the cyclists once you get out of congestion. I am not racing the cars, but a lot of drivers, and admittedly cyclists, are racing.

So what you're trying to say is that drivers are mad because your "$1600" bike just passed their more expensive vehicle? Do you actually believe the average motorist knows or cares that your bike is $1600 or a $100 bike from Wal-Mart? If you actually believe that anyone in a vehicle gives a rats behind how much your bike costs and that they are "rage mad" then you truly have a messed up view of reality.

I don't think anyone looks at the cyclist and says "damn $1600 bike thinks he's going to pass me..oh wait it's a $100 bike from Wal-Mart I'll just let them pass"

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by pylon

There is a huge difference between a bike and a car, and as a cyclist you are far closer to a pedestrian than a motorist. The likelihood of me killing you in your car while I am on my bike is probably 0.00000000000000000000001%. The likelihood of me killing a pedestrian is probably 0.00001 %. After a quick google search, I couldn't find one scenario where a cyclist killed a pedestrian in Calgary, ever.

Just to clarify, I think there was a lady killed by a guy on a road bike on a pathway in the NW not to long ago...I'll see if I can find a link.

edit: nope I lied, it was a rollerblader.... http://newsroom.calgary.ca/pr/calgar...er-163904.aspx

At approximately 1756hrs on July 15th, 2010 Calgary Police Service members attended a report of a collision involving a roller blader and an elderly female pedestrian in on a foot path in Confederation Park.
The pedestrian was transported to Hospital with life threatening injuries. Members of the Calgary Police Service are still investigating.

Pretty sure she died a few days later.

[jar_e]

nm

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by pylon

I will leave with this. Locke, It is obvious by your post you know very little about cycling. Not a slight, simply an observation. Why don't you do this. Why don't you, accompany me, through the downtown core, on a weekday say at...7:30 am, and see if your opinion is any different. See the hell that cyclists have to deal with from the other side. See how comfortable you feel riding in a bike lane, that drivers are cutting into, see if you will really sit in traffic at the head of the line at a light with a guy waiting to turn right on your back wheel, or if you take the curb instead. I have a pile of bikes, I would be happy to lend you one for the experiment.

Ooooh - a challenge / dare:



You know what they say about walking a mile in another man's shoe's Locke - c'mon, give it a try. I'm willing to bet a lot of the "attitudes" in this thread would be different if they did this.

[Ark2]

There seems to me a misconception that keeps popping up in this thread, so I would just like to set the record straight: Drivers are not jealous of cyclists. There just isn't anything to be jealous about. Cyclists look like spandex clad ######s. They are a nuisance to drivers everywhere and the fact that they think the rules should only apply to them when they feel it is convenient is the reason that non-cyclists can't stand them. You guys aren't saving the planet, you aren't making my commute easier, if you want to ride a bike, go buy a stationary, set it up in your garage and stay out of my way.

[CaramonLS]

I'm cool with the city becoming more Bike Friendly, but I'd also like certain roads to have strictly enforced minimum speed limits.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by puckluck

So what you're trying to say is that drivers are mad because your "$1600" bike just passed their more expensive vehicle? Do you actually believe the average motorist knows or cares that your bike is $1600 or a $100 bike from Wal-Mart? If you actually believe that anyone in a vehicle gives a rats behind how much your bike costs and that they are "rage mad" then you truly have a messed up view of reality.

I don't think anyone looks at the cyclist and says "damn $1600 bike thinks he's going to pass me..oh wait it's a $100 bike from Wal-Mart I'll just let them pass"

Yeah sorry pylon, I'm sure puckluck here.

I think that part of your reply speaks to the arrogance of cyclists that some of us are talking about.

[JustAnotherGuy]

The thread title says it all and is perfect. Bicyclists suck. If they followed the rules of the road then it would be much safer for them. When I see a bike on the road I give him the respect of being another vehicle on the road. But when he starts breaking rules then I have no respect for him anymore. I am not going to do anything because I don't want to have to clean my car off. But he can go to hell.

[something]

Originally Posted by puckluck

So what you're trying to say is that drivers are mad because your "$1600" bike just passed their more expensive vehicle? Do you actually believe the average motorist knows or cares that your bike is $1600 or a $100 bike from Wal-Mart? If you actually believe that anyone in a vehicle gives a rats behind how much your bike costs and that they are "rage mad" then you truly have a messed up view of reality.

I don't think anyone looks at the cyclist and says "damn $1600 bike thinks he's going to pass me..oh wait it's a $100 bike from Wal-Mart I'll just let them pass"

Not that I agree with the point Pylon was making, but you kindof missed it... And no, the following is not an explanation as to why. I feel there is a more important issue to be addressed than some immaterial nuance.

I commute via both methods. I can see the points being made on both sides. Both sides in this thread have been reasonably eloquent and accurate in depicting their experiences with each other. I don't have much to add to this thread except the following:

You all seem to be arguing an underlying traffic danger - inconsistent driver behaviours. This produces unexpected decisions while on the road, based on the participating drivers perspectives. Think of it this way:

Driver A decides to speed. Speeding creates a speed differential among those obeying the speed limit and the "trangressor", driver A. This speed differential results in misperceptions of those surrounding driver A. If circumstances align, the risk assumed by driver A results in an accident. Lets hypothesize, the risk associated with speeding is 1% in general circumstances. Lets also presume that the average cost of an accident (not that you can neatly quantify these things... but for the sake of the example assume so) is $1000. Before knowing the outcome of speeding, driver A performs a risk analysis according to the rudimentary information provided here (although this would be variable in real life, and far more complex). Every time driver A speeds, he assumes a cost of $1000(0.01) = $10. If the speeding results in a net benefit, that is the benefit is greater than the cost, Driver A, being a rational agent, would speed. In other words, if the time saved while speeding is worth $11 dollars, the net gain is $1. There is a great deal of variability associated with this example, far too much to list here. Some common ones, however, would be that drivers assess risk differently and the benefit to subjecting ourselves and others to such risk is greater to the driver.

Tear apart the example all you want - this is a rudimentary version of the analysis many drivers perform implicitly every moment, everyday they commute. I would suggest that such analysis is not influenced to a great degree by the type of vehicle you drive. Whether that be a 450 HP mustang or a commuting cycle, it is largely irrelevant. Yes, I would agree that some drivers succumb to impulse - their analysis is skewed by their "ego" - though I do not see this being a general factor in inconsistent traffic behaviour.

This thread seems to confine being an inconsiderate ####### to the type of vehicle you drive. I swear you could rewrite this thread to a motorcycle versus cars, or trucks versus hybrid vehicle scenario and all the arguments would be of similar cogency or effectiveness; as such, the change would be mostly indistinguishable from this current thread. The particularities of the scenarios would differ, though the principle of acclimated behaviours respective of the vehicle would persist - and seeing that most motorists tend to prefer a single vehicle, they are unfamiliar with the specific dangers of their vehicles operation, but perfectly familiar with those of the other vehicles.

The concern here is a lack of acclimation to the other vehicles behaviours - people don't understand the risk analyses involved with other vehicles. I drive motorcycles, cars, and bikes. I have extensive experience with all. I can't begin to describe the subtleties associated with the risk analyses for each vehicle, and the perception of other vehicles on the road. Consider this: in California, it is legal and also common for motorcycles to "thread" traffic. Very few motorists in California, under reasonable circumstances, finds this to be a threat - it is expected. The risk analysis for most drivers factors this in. Here in Calgary, it would scare the #### out of most drivers, and they would respond by becoming uncertain with how to proceed. Some people respond rationally, some emotionally. Of those who respond emotionally, they usually end up adopting inappropriate behaviours and then spew garbage on internet forums.

A city in which bicycle commuting is becoming ubiquitous is a city that must learn to cope with the tension associated with such growth. These are circumstances that we are only becoming familiar with. Everyone, take a deep breath, and think how you can help. It often only means to shoulder check, or to perform an insignificant stop.

I can assure you Pylon, if you can manage biking 20 or more kilometres a day for your commute, stopping at a stop sign is a trivial and considerate affair. I understand how it is when it is late at night, in a low traffic setting, and yes, your senses including sight and hearing are much more apt than in a car. You do ignore that stop sign, albeit cautiously.

I have also experienced those driving cars who, when passing a bike, miss me by an inch. Such reckless and dangerous behaviour forces me to adapt my own behaviour, and I end up riding on what feels like a 2x4 all the way home. Imagine how many times this will happen on a commute.

Instead of all the finger pointing, ask yourself what behaviours you could adopt to better someone else commute. I can assure you it will better your own commute either. Such behaviours might only cost you a minute in 30, but will go along way to help others out. You won't be so wound up with traffic anymore and have a more enjoyable workday or evening.

Also, do what you can to encourage cyclists. Think how much better it would be for your lungs, for your wallet, your commute time, your health - your standard of living. This goes for even those too resilient to get out of their car, the benefits are obvious.

[something]

Originally Posted by Ark2

There seems to me a misconception that keeps popping up in this thread, so I would just like to set the record straight: Drivers are not jealous of cyclists. There just isn't anything to be jealous about. Cyclists look like spandex clad ######s. They are a nuisance to drivers everywhere and the fact that they think the rules should only apply to them when they feel it is convenient is the reason that non-cyclists can't stand them. You guys aren't saving the planet, you aren't making my commute easier, if you want to ride a bike, go buy a stationary, set it up in your garage and stay out of my way.

No, but the wives of the drivers are

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Anyone notice that the people who complain about cyclists only obeying the rules when it's convenient for them, and don't beleive that sometimes bending the rules makes it easier/safer for a cyclist, and claim that they are just doing it to get somewhere faster, are the same people who will defend to the death their choice to speed because it is safer, and has nothing to do with just trying to get somehwere faster?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Anyone notice that the people who complain about cyclists only obeying the rules when it's convenient for them, and don't beleive that sometimes bending the rules makes it easier/safer for a cyclist, and claim that they are just doing it to get somewhere faster, are the same people who will defend to the death their choice to speed because it is safer, and has nothing to do with just trying to get somehwere faster?

Who is doing this?

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Anyone notice that the people who complain about cyclists only obeying the rules when it's convenient for them, and don't beleive that sometimes bending the rules makes it easier/safer for a cyclist, and claim that they are just doing it to get somewhere faster, are the same people who will defend to the death their choice to speed because it is safer, and has nothing to do with just trying to get somehwere faster?

Haven't noticed this at all actually.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Who is doing this?

I don't think he means in this thread. A good example is post # 1 of the gear grinder thread.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by puckluck

So what you're trying to say is that drivers are mad because your "$1600" bike just passed their more expensive vehicle? Do you actually believe the average motorist knows or cares that your bike is $1600 or a $100 bike from Wal-Mart? If you actually believe that anyone in a vehicle gives a rats behind how much your bike costs and that they are "rage mad" then you truly have a messed up view of reality.

I don't think anyone looks at the cyclist and says "damn $1600 bike thinks he's going to pass me..oh wait it's a $100 bike from Wal-Mart I'll just let them pass"

You totally missed the point as per usual. $1600 is totally poor ass for a real road bike. The real serious dudes will have wheels or groupsets worth more than $1600. It is not an attempt to puff my chest. I could have said "On my $232.56 bike, passing his $3500 Dodge Neon." I was just using the facts in front of me with what I know I paid, and what I would estimate the cost of what Locke drives.

The point I was trying to make was a relative cost thing. A lot of people have ego issues with being passed in the big expensive SUV by either a skateboard, another car or a bike. Pure ego.
And it can create a ton of conflict in a dense traffic situation, when you pass the same guy multiple times due to stop and go traffic. 90% of the conflicts I seem to have had, are with guys driving big trucks or SUVs.

Originally Posted by Ark2

There seems to me a misconception that keeps popping up in this thread, so I would just like to set the record straight: Drivers are not jealous of cyclists. There just isn't anything to be jealous about. Cyclists look like spandex clad ######s. They are a nuisance to drivers everywhere and the fact that they think the rules should only apply to them when they feel it is convenient is the reason that non-cyclists can't stand them. You guys aren't saving the planet, you aren't making my commute easier, if you want to ride a bike, go buy a stationary, set it up in your garage and stay out of my way.

Where have I said drivers are jealous, show me one spot. I have stated drivers get mad, which is an entirely different emotion altogether.

Also what is with the personal attacks going on in this thread? I get that you guys hate frikkin cyclists. But the vast majority of the chirping is being done by people that have probably never once in their life, actually commuted on one, and have no clue what they are talking about, let alone ridden one more than a few hundred kms in their entire life. That is an average week for me between commuting, and just excersise.

All I have been trying to point out, is until you actually are in the position of a cyclist, during a rush hour commute, you really have no idea what it is like in the position of the cyclist.

And lets clear one thing up here. I am not running lights at controlled intersections in downtown Calgary at 4:00 pm, That would be suicide. And as much as some of you would love me to become a road stain, I am not that stupid. If there is a light, I stop, unless it is late at night, and I am the only guy in site, or in the middle of nowhere and hit a 4 way. All you holier than thou guys can claim you would sit and wait... but 99% of cyclists don't, and likely neither would you.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by pylon

You totally missed the point as per usual. $1600 is totally poor ass for a real road bike. The real serious dudes will have wheels or groupsets worth more than $1600. It is not an attempt to puff my chest. I could have said "On my $232.56 bike, passing his $3500 Dodge Neon." I was just using the facts in front of me with what I know I paid, and what I would estimate the cost of what Locke drives.

The point I was trying to make was a relative cost thing. A lot of people have ego issues with being passed in the big expensive SUV by either a skateboard, another car or a bike. Pure ego.
And it can create a ton of conflict in a dense traffic situation, when you pass the same guy multiple times due to stop and go traffic. 90% of the conflicts I seem to have had, are with guys driving big trucks or SUVs.



Where have I said drivers are jealous, show me one spot. I have stated drivers get mad, which is an entirely different emotion altogether.

Also what is with the personal attacks going on in this thread? I get that you guys hate frikkin cyclists. But the vast majority of the chirping is being done by people that have probably never once in their life, actually commuted on one, and have no clue what they are talking about, let alone ridden one more than a few hundred kms in their entire life. That is an average week for me between commuting, and just excersise.

All I have been trying to point out, is until you actually are in the position of a cyclist, during a rush hour commute, you really have no idea what it is like in the position of the cyclist.

And lets clear one thing up here. I am not running lights at controlled intersections in downtown Calgary at 4:00 pm, That would be suicide. And as much as some of you would love me to become a road stain, I am not that stupid. If there is a light, I stop, unless it is late at night, and I am the only guy in site, or in the middle of nowhere and hit a 4 way. All you holier than thou guys can claim you would sit and wait... but 99% of cyclists don't, and likely neither would you.

So that ego issue you're pointing out isn't jealousy? Right.....

[pylon]

Originally Posted by valo403

So that ego issue you're pointing out isn't jealousy? Right.....

No it is not. You do not have to be jealous of something to be egotistical.

Example, it upsets me that my neighbour cooks stinky ethnic food and the smell comes into my condo, however, I am not jealous of him, or the fact that he eats it. If I had my way however, he would not do that because it bothers me, and he would cook something I like the smell of, which is my ego speaking....

Of course it's an unreasonable request, as he can cook what he wants. But it still bugs me, and I will still make sure my BBQ is extra smokey when I am cooking.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by something

No, but the wives of the drivers are

I don't think they value silky smooth legs as much as cyclists do.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by pylon

You totally missed the point as per usual. $1600 is totally poor ass for a real road bike. The real serious dudes will have wheels or groupsets worth more than $1600. It is not an attempt to puff my chest. I could have said "On my $232.56 bike, passing his $3500 Dodge Neon." I was just using the facts in front of me with what I know I paid, and what I would estimate the cost of what Locke drives.

The point I was trying to make was a relative cost thing. A lot of people have ego issues with being passed in the big expensive SUV by either a skateboard, another car or a bike. Pure ego.
And it can create a ton of conflict in a dense traffic situation, when you pass the same guy multiple times due to stop and go traffic. 90% of the conflicts I seem to have had, are with guys driving big trucks or SUVs.

Lol I missed the point? Maybe make your point more clearer then. What's the point of telling us how much your bike costs and how much Lockes car costs and mentioning ego in the same sentence if it has nothing to do with your argument? For the record I really don't have a huge problem with cyclists as I don't work downtown and rarely see them on my commute to work which is mostly on the highways, I just find your arrogance pretty hilarious. And honestly it sounds like you have the biggest ego out of everyone which isn't necessarily a bad thing but I think you have to start looking into the mirror and realize not everyone thinks like you on the road. I couldn't care less about the relative cost thing between cyclists and vehicles and whoever does has ego issues like you say but I don't think 99.9999 percent of people care about being passed in a big expensive suv or truck or any car for that matter. The problem lies with the cyclists who are convenient pedestrians and vehicles of the road. City of Calgary does need more bike lanes, but until they do I think cyclists should have to obey the rules of the road.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by pylon

Here is the problem. If you really want to see mayhem on the roads, then have cyclists obey all the traffic rules like a car...fine. You will wait longer at 4 way stops, you will miss lights, you will be stuck in heavy traffic behind a guy that can only pedal so fast.

The problem is that when a cyclist makes up his own rules; that means you have a different set of rules based on what each cyclist decided for himself. So what you might do is different than what the next guy might do- and you are expecting the motorist to be psychic as well as telepathic.

Case in point with my most recent near miss- I was coming into McKenzie Towne from Deerfoot; heading towards the traffic circle. I take the first exit in the circle so I am in the right hand lane. A cyclist is riding along the sidewalk; shown on the right here: Link

Now what he does is instead of proceeding along the sidewalk, he suddenly turns and goes to cross at the pedestrian cross walk. Assuming he is traveling at 15 km/h; that gives me about 1/4 second to react. The only thing that saved him was the fact that I am a CPer; so I have above average driving skills.

He didn't signal, he didn't dismount, and he gave me a look like I had done something wrong when I layed on the horn.

When you hop onto the sidewalk to breeze through a 3 way stop; do you signal? What about other times; do you signal each and every time? To me that is the big thing- treat your fellow commuters with respect and you will receive it back.