Kirk Cameron Attacks Stephen Hawking

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well I am sick of you liking things for weird and bizarre reasons, lose-lose my friend.

I'm sick of people not appreciating of all the cool connections and depth and stories behind things in life.

Win-win because I annoyed you. *mentos fresh and full of life!*

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

See that's the thing, the reason I believe what I believe is largely based upon the bible. I'm satisfied to my standard that the bible is God's word. I've had God work in my life and in others around me to again satisfy me that God is real. It's not something I can produce hard evidence to satisfy you or anyone else nor is that what I'm called to do. I present the word of God as best I can and I really leave it up to God to do the persuasion part because he's far better at it that I am.

This is, you must realize, is the definition of circular logic and reasoning. Why do you believe in the bible? Because it's the word of God. Why do you believe in the God? Because of bible. If you're tired of playing by our rules (and by us I presume you mean rational and critical thinking individuals) that is completely your right. However, in doing so, you have excluded yourself from any scientific understanding of our world and universe, because you can't debate faith, it is mutually exclusive with logical proof or material evidence.

[robocop]

I can't wait for his response, it should be grand

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by J pold

This is, you must realize, is the definition of circular logic and reasoning. Why do you believe in the bible? Because it's the word of God. Why do you believe in the God? Because of bible.

To be fair, it's not exactly circular logic as he says he feels that he has seen god work in his life. That's what he takes as proof that he has been doing the right thing by believing in the bible that is the basis of his faith.

What I always wondered as a kid sitting in church was how that was any different from a hockey player who believes he's scoring goals because he touches the goalposts 3 times, doesn't step on cracks, and eats the same meal before every game. Goals are the proof that he's doing the right thing. Don't we call that superstition?

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

To be fair, it's not exactly circular logic as he says he feels that he has seen god work in his life. That's what he takes as proof that he has been doing the right thing by believing in the bible that is the basis of his faith.

Fair enough, but I suspect that with some further poking and prodding we'd see the circular logic come out eventually. And, like you pointed out, people who have seen gods works (or claim to have) are likely the people predisposed to do so, ie something extraordinary occurs in their life, it was clearly the work of god. It's like the parents whose child is cured of some terrible disease, and say it was the work of god. Not the doctors, or nurses, or meds, or advances in technology that allowed for the treatment to be possible, nope, just god.

[Yeah_Baby]

I believe in Evolution. But I can't stand Dawkins.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by J pold

This is, you must realize, is the definition of circular logic and reasoning. Why do you believe in the bible? Because it's the word of God. Why do you believe in the God? Because of bible. If you're tired of playing by our rules (and by us I presume you mean rational and critical thinking individuals) that is completely your right. However, in doing so, you have excluded yourself from any scientific understanding of our world and universe, because you can't debate faith, it is mutually exclusive with logical proof or material evidence.

So I guess according to you I'm not rational and a critical thinking person. Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I'm not a scientist (I really leave that up to my wife) and as I said I'm at peace with my faith and what I believe. I guess you aren't right we can't debate faith can we. For the record what I've seen in my life has nothing to do with doctor or medicines but just how certain things fell into place perfectly.

Originally Posted by J pold

Fair enough, but I suspect that with some further poking and prodding...

If you don't like my reasons for why I believe I do than move along. After all I'm not some lab animal for you to "poke and prod".

[Matata]

In 20-40 years, religion is going to be so dead, why even worry about it?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Matata

In 20-40 years, religion is going to be so dead, why even worry about it?

Religion will never die. Humans seem to be hard wired to believe in something greater than them, if there isn't then morality becomes subjective. The weak will always need to have a carrot dangled in front of them and religion is that carrot.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Religion will never die. Humans seem to be hard wired to believe in something greater than them, if there isn't then morality becomes subjective. The weak will always need to have a carrot dangled in front of them and religion is that carrot.

All animlas are hard wired to claw desperatly for life, when our particular species of small hairless ape gained the mental capacity to realise death was inevitable it had to come up with something to sate the instinct to survive.

[robocop]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

So I guess according to you I'm not rational and a critical thinking person. Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I'm not a scientist (I really leave that up to my wife) and as I said I'm at peace with my faith and what I believe. I guess you aren't right we can't debate faith can we. For the record what I've seen in my life has nothing to do with doctor or medicines but just how certain things fell into place perfectly.

read your second paragraph, that's not rational. An invisible man in the sky adjusting your life to fall into place is not rational.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

See that's the thing, the reason I believe what I believe is largely based upon the bible. I'm satisfied to my standard that the bible is God's word. I've had God work in my life and in others around me to again satisfy me that God is real. It's not something I can produce hard evidence to satisfy you or anyone else nor is that what I'm called to do. I present the word of God as best I can and I really leave it up to God to do the persuasion part because he's far better at it that I am.

The bible, which one?

[Weiser Wonder]

Religion as we know it will probably die but kind of thinking that fuels religion will go on forever. It's a whole lot more complicated than getting rid of Christianity. Really if you are an atheist and you believe the world is meaningless chaos, that means all meaning is contrived. At that point you have to step back and ponder what that means for your own life. How much of your life is based on you applying intrinsic meaning to it when there is none? All of it? So how do you go about living? Where and why do you apply meaning?

[Shades]

Originally Posted by photon

You can tone down the hostility, I always back up what I say with research.

I used to preach this stuff from the pulpit, so it's not like I'm looking at it as an outsider.

I know you used to preach the Bible which is why I hold you to a higher standard, am doubly annoyed at your lack of Biblical insight, and as postulated earlier in the thread, the reason why I said the majority of Christians are either outright or ignorantly hypocrites.

The modern Church teaches doctrines contrary to the Bible. Many priests/pastors are elitists, like the Pharisees and Sadducees who relied more on man-made tradition and laws and lost the meaning of what was really written in the Torah. After the 1st century, the Church was perverted by pagan customs and traditions.

If you ever taught about eternal damnation, an immortal soul, or the concept of a triune God from your pulpit, then there's really no point in attempting to discuss the Bible with you.

What exactly caused the shift to atheism? Loss of loved one? The birth of a mentally or physically handicapped child? Abuse? Hypocrisy you saw within the Church? And "education" as an answer is a non-starter. The are many scientists who believe in ID. If you'd rather not reveal such personal information, that's fine.

I've seen theists become atheists and atheists become theists after some life changing event.

And I'm not being hostile, just blunt. Whereas these comments are belittling and insulting without contributing any evidence or argument:

Originally Posted by ResAlien

The weak will always need to have a carrot dangled in front of them and religion is that answer.

Originally Posted by J pold

If you're tired of playing by our rules (and by us I presume you mean rational and critical thinking individuals) that is completely your right.

So let's shift gears and just for fun, what if the Big Bang formed a God-like creature that created everything else? How would you feel about that? Would we be considered Gods to any self-aware robots or life that we as humans created? What exactly would you define as "God" even?

And more on topic about Hawking, what if one day he came out and said he actually did believe in a God? Would that discredit all his earlier work or writings?

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by robocop

read your second paragraph, that's not rational. An invisible man in the sky adjusting your life to fall into place is not rational.

It's not rational to you. I also didn't say everything that happened nor do I see a need to do so. It is rational and just because you think it's not doesn't make it so. Several other people who have heard the actual circumstances around it also think it is rational.

What I do find irrational is the focus on trying to tear down another persons beliefs.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The bible, which one?

I could list off all the translations if you really want me to but I don't see a purpose to that. Which bible do you think I'm referring to?

[Shades]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I look at the universe and I see something that is so amazing that I find that it actually takes a complete lack of imagination and the lack of the ability to broaden your mind to see the bigger picture for you to believe absolutely in the simplest possible solution. One without any proof whatsoever - that it was simply made that way by a creator who was just always there and is all-powerful.

Ironically, I was going to use the same argument for my position. I look at the universe in all its infinite complexity, intricateness and variety and wonder how some believe it all came about by chance.

You believe it did, fine. But I don't understand the bitter attitude toward those that don't. It's like a pseudo-intellectual bullying club.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I could list off all the translations if you really want me to but I don't see a purpose to that. Which bible do you think I'm referring to?

Well there can only be one that is the word of god, the rest are interpretations, personally I am partial to the King James, but no way God chooses that inbred sodomite to bring his word to the world.

I am wondering if you read 'the bible' or just some questionable translation.

[Shades]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I could list off all the translations if you really want me to but I don't see a purpose to that. Which bible do you think I'm referring to?

They're just trolling.

Although it helps having translations containing Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. It really clears up some some verses.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Shades

So let's shift gears and just for fun, what if the Big Bang formed a God-like creature that created everything else? How would you feel about that??

Then god is just another being, not some almighty being that I should be bowing before. While this hypothetical entity may be "above" me in the evolutionary scale it is in no way a universal truth or absolute ruler. If anything this view of god is that it's just an anomaly, a random creation, pure dumb luck that ended up creating me as I am. Now why does this random idea get to govern my life? Why would this arbitrary act of the universe have any special recourse on my eternal soul?