Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Cole436

Haven't heard of it, but being a big gym rat I can't see how so few exercises and days will help you gain a lot of mass unless you're going on a crazy carb diet.

Starting Strength is a beginner's program for intensity training. Intensity training generally focuses on the big compound exercises (squat, deadlift, bench press, t-bar rows, olympic lifts), and on the lower rep range (1 - 4 reps). This lower rep range causes neural adaptations much more than hypertrophy. Intensity training is the route to go for maximum strength, but of course there is a cost. When you intensity train - especially with periodization - there is a high risk of injury and it's just plain hard. 1RMs (which you would work up to in a periodized model) are very difficult; you need to have perfect form before you should even come close to attempting them. That said, intensity training is the more efficient resistance training, because you spend less time in the gym and more time recovering because of the high stress of the low rep range on the neural component. It's a common misconception in the intensity field that you need to eat a lot and gain fat to gain the maximum amount of muscle, which is plain old false. Most of the guys you see that intensity training have substantial body fat.

Originally Posted by Cole436

Personally, my regime is a 3 day regime done 5 consecutive days.

Day 1
Back, 4x exercises, 4 sets, 6-8 reps.
- Always doing Olympic bar rows as a starting exercise
Legs, 4x exercises, 4 sets, 6-8 reps
- Start off the exercise with Squats

Day 2
Chest 4x exercises, 4 sets, 6-8 reps
- Interchange bench press and dumbbell press to start exercise
Shoulder 4x exercises, 4 sets, 6-8 reps
- Start with free weight shoulder press

Day 3
Arms 8x exercises, 4 sets, 6-8 reps
- Usually isolation exercises for bi's and tri's

As was mentioned, you're potentially missing ab/lower back which are very important.

You're doing volume training in the 6 - 10 rep range, which is the hypertrophy range. Generally volume training means higher reps, more exercises, higher frequency (days / week) and therefore a lot more time in the gym. There's also a lot less potential injury, it's a lot easier (again, 1 RMs are hard!), and it's much more sustainable long term.

So it depends on your goals. If you want efficiency, go for intensity training if you're prepared to learn the proper form! The advanced intensity programs will not only give you much better strength, but likely more hypertrophy than the advanced volume programs (despite the rep ranges). But of course there is a cost. If you want to stay in the volume rep range then there are several alterations that you can do to your program including periodizing it, increase the frequency (days/week), which exercises, # of sets, etc.

Right now I'm on a long term advanced volume training program. I can train all year long without missing a day or ever feeling tired. I have non-linear periodization built in. If I were to really go hard for strength and hypertrophy, I would build a periodized program that builds up to 1 RMs and peak strength. I always fall back to my volume training; it also allows me to train cardio hard without ever worrying about overreaching or overtraining.

[NoWorries]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Starting Strength is a beginner's program for intensity training. Intensity training generally focuses on the big compound exercises (squat, deadlift, bench press, t-bar rows, olympic lifts), and on the lower rep range (1 - 4 reps). This lower rep range causes neural adaptations much more than hypertrophy. Intensity training is the route to go for maximum strength, but of course there is a cost. When you intensity train - especially with periodization - there is a high risk of injury and it's just plain hard. 1RMs (which you would work up to in a periodized model) are very difficult; you need to have perfect form before you should even come close to attempting them. That said, intensity training is the more efficient resistance training, because you spend less time in the gym and more time recovering because of the high stress of the low rep range on the neural component. It's a common misconception in the intensity field that you need to eat a lot and gain fat to gain the maximum amount of muscle, which is plain old false. Most of the guys you see that intensity training have substantial body fat.




As was mentioned, you're potentially missing ab/lower back which are very important.

You're doing volume training in the 6 - 10 rep range, which is the hypertrophy range. Generally volume training means higher reps, more exercises, higher frequency (days / week) and therefore a lot more time in the gym. There's also a lot less potential injury, it's a lot easier (again, 1 RMs are hard!), and it's much more sustainable long term.

So it depends on your goals. If you want efficiency, go for intensity training if you're prepared to learn the proper form! The advanced intensity programs will not only give you much better strength, but likely more hypertrophy than the advanced volume programs (despite the rep ranges). But of course there is a cost. If you want to stay in the volume rep range then there are several alterations that you can do to your program including periodizing it, increase the frequency (days/week), which exercises, # of sets, etc.

Right now I'm on a long term advanced volume training program. I can train all year long without missing a day or ever feeling tired. I have non-linear periodization built in. If I were to really go hard for strength and hypertrophy, I would build a periodized program that builds up to 1 RMs and peak strength. I always fall back to my volume training; it also allows me to train cardio hard without ever worrying about overreaching or overtraining.

Just curious - what is your experience with starting strength?

Some of this is correct and some is not.

Read the book. If done right you will gain minimal fat. I had a visible six pack the entire time I did it. If you eat a lot of junk you will gain fat. If you eat good healthy food the weight you do gain will be mostly muscle. You are eating to recover. If you don't eat enough you will not maximize your gains and will stall sooner.

My calories broke down to about 60% fat, 25% protein, 15% carbs give or take anywhere from 4100 to 4600 calories in total. I tracked it via fitday.

One random day - 4100 cals
304.5 grams of fat - 66%
132.9 grams of carbs - 12%
225.0 grams of protein - 22%

A novice is determined not by how long you have lifted or how much you can lift, but by whether or not you can still maintain gains in a linear fashion. It is the easiest way to gain strength and you want to take advantage of it for as long as possible.

You do need good form and Rippetoe covers this extensively in the book. This is a well proven program. Rip was a competitive lifter and he knows what he is talking about:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_Rippetoe
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi..._Strength_Wiki

If you want to gain strength this is the program to do - in a lot of cases even if you have lifted before you will still see benefit. I did crossfit for 2 years before I did this, so I had lifting experience prior to it. If you don't want to gain size don't eat to gain size. Keep the calories lower. The amount is very individual depending on a whole host of lifetyle factors etc.

You don't need separate back and ab workouts - squats, deadlifts and presses work your entire core far better than isolation excercises - what do you think is stabilizing that heavy barbell when it is on your back? If you want to do them as accessory excercises go ahead, but do not focus on them.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Go watch a Judo class to see what you can do that is outside the box to develop your core.

Any good tips without having to watch a judo class? maybe youtube vids?

[no_joke]

Originally Posted by Ark2

As for cardio... I don't know... I play soccer once a week where my cardio is pretty intense for about 45 minutes. Other than that, I just find it extremely boring. I'll start doing it if I think it's needed, but I've always thought that hardgainers should try to avoid doing cardio when attempting to bulk up?

I'd consider myself a "hardgainer" as well but if you read the forums (I think bodybuilding.com Starting Strength thread) they recommend one simple thing and it's already been said: eat. Eat anything to fuel muscle growth. Especially if you're young (high school young) and it'll work even better. I haven't tested this out myself but they say to eat without prejudice, meaning pizza and McDonalds aren't off-limits. Mind you this is dependent on your workout goals and your genetics, so do your research first.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=108535881

SS is an excellent program that focuses on olympic lifts and developing core strength. There are no "arms" days here!

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Any good tips without having to watch a judo class? maybe youtube vids?

There are lots of youtube vids, that is for sure. Each club tries to outdo the next club.

Examples include jumping twenty times on one leg over a partners leg, twenty with your other leg, then your partner stands up and leans over, you then have to climb over them and through the legs, repeat for ten. Switch,let your partner do a set, then you go again.

Sit down, have your partner lay down holding onto your belt, and you reel them in. Scoot back, and reel them in again, keep going across the room.

Lift your partner up and run across the room, drag them back, repeat a few times.

Do the crab walk a few laps then crawl, not using your legs.

[Kipperriffic]

Rippetoe's program is awesome. It is, however, for people who are young and skinny and want to build overall strength first and then go on to specific muscles later on.

It isn't for body builders, and it also isn't for someone who wants to just have "huge biceps", doesn't care about the overall body, and stands in the corner of the gym spending the whole time trying to do 30 pound biceps curls lol! That never works.

I've been trying to be consistent w/ A: squats+deadlift+chest and B:squats+back+shoulders.
Thats it for now; giving the above all I have and then eating everything that comes my way. No "diet plan" or anything.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

His book, also called Starting Strength, is phenomenal. It gives an extremely thorough explanation of how you do the exercises and why they are done that way.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by NoWorries

Read the book. If done right you will gain minimal fat. I had a visible six pack the entire time I did it. If you eat a lot of junk you will gain fat. If you eat good healthy food the weight you do gain will be mostly muscle. You are eating to recover. If you don't eat enough you will not maximize your gains and will stall sooner.

It doesn't matter what you eat, it's how much you eat. That's what calories are; a measure of the energy in foods.

To build muscle you need adequate protein. 1.8g / kg of body weight is likely the ceiling for protein, so if you weigh 200 pounds, you would need 160g of protein a day. Excess protein is converted into glucose and used as energy; if not, it's stored as fat.

If you're jumping into a resistance training program you need more calories no doubt. You need to replenish your glycogen stores or after a few workouts you'll be too fatigued to continue. The best way to do this is a high GI recovery drink within 30 minutes of exercise, and a high (complex) carb meal within 2 hours. Your diet should consist of at moderate (55%) or higher carbohydrates. If it does, you will not need substantially more calories to build muscle and gain strength. All more calories do is add fat.

Originally Posted by NoWorries

My calories broke down to about 60% fat, 25% protein, 15% carbs give or take anywhere from 4100 to 4600 calories in total. I tracked it via fitday.

One random day - 4100 cals
304.5 grams of fat - 66%
132.9 grams of carbs - 12%
225.0 grams of protein - 22%

If you don't want to gain size don't eat to gain size. Keep the calories lower. The amount is very individual depending on a whole host of lifetyle factors etc.

I'm assuming that since you're eating so much fat most of it is coming from really crappy food. I'm willing to bet a lot of it is saturated fat. You would have been much better off keeping the calories lower and shifting more focus onto carbs. Yea, maybe you're a lucky obesity-resistant person and didn't gain weight, but you likely had/have a disgusting blood lipid profile with that diet.

You don't need to gain fat to gain muscle!

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by no_joke

I'd consider myself a "hardgainer" as well but if you read the forums (I think bodybuilding.com Starting Strength thread) they recommend one simple thing and it's already been said: eat. Eat anything to fuel muscle growth. Especially if you're young (high school young) and it'll work even better. I haven't tested this out myself but they say to eat without prejudice, meaning pizza and McDonalds aren't off-limits. Mind you this is dependent on your workout goals and your genetics, so do your research first.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=108535881

SS is an excellent program that focuses on olympic lifts and developing core strength. There are no "arms" days here!

Our society is in such a pathetic state over nutrition that even the people who get enough exercise and resistance train are becoming obese because of these absolutely baseless misconceptions. The whole gym community astounds me with why they think these things.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Any good tips without having to watch a judo class? maybe youtube vids?

Search for Zuzana on youtube. If that doesn't motivate you I don't know what will......

[NoWorries]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

It doesn't matter what you eat, it's how much you eat. That's what calories are; a measure of the energy in foods.

To build muscle you need adequate protein. 1.8g / kg of body weight is likely the ceiling for protein, so if you weigh 200 pounds, you would need 160g of protein a day. Excess protein is converted into glucose and used as energy; if not, it's stored as fat.

If you're jumping into a resistance training program you need more calories no doubt. You need to replenish your glycogen stores or after a few workouts you'll be too fatigued to continue. The best way to do this is a high GI recovery drink within 30 minutes of exercise, and a high (complex) carb meal within 2 hours. Your diet should consist of at moderate (55%) or higher carbohydrates. If it does, you will not need substantially more calories to build muscle and gain strength. All more calories do is add fat.



I'm assuming that since you're eating so much fat most of it is coming from really crappy food. I'm willing to bet a lot of it is saturated fat. You would have been much better off keeping the calories lower and shifting more focus onto carbs. Yea, maybe you're a lucky obesity-resistant person and didn't gain weight, but you likely had/have a disgusting blood lipid profile with that diet.

You don't need to gain fat to gain muscle!

If it doesn't matter what I eat, I should be able to eat crappy food...no?

I thought this thread was about starting strength by Mark Rippetoe...

Also, be careful with your assumptions!

It definitely matters what you eat...I would have put on a ton of fat if I had fries/pizzas sodas etc. at the same caloric intake.

All calories are not equal. Our bodies our hormonal and react differently to different foods.

The fat breakdown was roughly even between mono, poly and sat.

Fat sources were nuts, seeds, olive oil, avocado, coconut, butter whatever breakdown the meat I was eating contained (which is mostly grassfed naturally raised pork, beef and chicken)

I eat almost 100% primal/paleo. If you want more info on that:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/
http://robbwolf.com/

You can definitely gain strength without putting on weight, you can also gain muscle slowly without eating a ton...it all depends on your goals. But I have yet to see a better way to put on lean mucsle mass quickly with minimal fat gain than eating smart/healthy paleo style diet (add milk if you tolerate it because it does help) coupled with starting strength. Do your research on it and draw your own conclusions.

If I had more time, I could go into more detail and explain my experiences further.

What program would you recommend to the original poster that would be better than starting strength?

[Ark2]

Okay, it's my first day between Workout A and B and I've got a couple of questions:

1) I'm pretty damn sore from the squat and deadlift exercises. Considering that I normally have DOMS for at least 2-3 days, is it alright to do squats tomorrow when I do Workout B even if I am still sore?

2) My chest isn't sore at all. This kind of has me concerned as I have been doing bench press with DB's for a while now and I have been stuck at 65lb DB's for over a month now. As such, I doubt that I will be able to experience novice gains on the bench press with a barbell. Any suggestions here?

[NoWorries]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Okay, it's my first day between Workout A and B and I've got a couple of questions:

1) I'm pretty damn sore from the squat and deadlift exercises. Considering that I normally have DOMS for at least 2-3 days, is it alright to do squats tomorrow when I do Workout B even if I am still sore?

Yup. I would just spend a little more time on the warm up.

2) My chest isn't sore at all. This kind of has me concerned as I have been doing bench press with DB's for a while now and I have been stuck at 65lb DB's for over a month now. As such, I doubt that I will be able to experience novice gains on the bench press with a barbell. Any suggestions here?

After 3 workouts of not hitting your 3 sets of 5 with the prescribed weight, rest by 10 % and work up again. You could even drop a little more...try at 55 lbs...how much were you increasing your weight between workouts on the bench? Did you try micro loading...only adding 1 lb etc?

BTW, do you have the book? Rip addresses all these questions in the book. If you don't I highly recommend getting it as you will see the best results having all the info instead of trying to piece it together online.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by NoWorries

After 3 workouts of not hitting your 3 sets of 5 with the prescribed weight, rest by 10 % and work up again. You could even drop a little more...try at 55 lbs...how much were you increasing your weight
between workouts on the bench?

I would increase by 5 lbs per dumbbell, so 10 lbs in total.

Did you try micro loading...only adding 1 lb etc?

I guess that is the downfall of using dumbbells, as I was only able to increase the weight in increments of 5 lbs per dumbbell.

BTW, do you have the book? Rip addresses all these questions in the book. If you don't I highly recommend getting it as you will see the best results having all the info instead of trying to piece it together online.

Yeah, I just got the second edition, so I will be reading it tonight.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by NoWorries

If it doesn't matter what I eat, I should be able to eat crappy food...no?

It doesn't matter what you eat for weight gain if they're the same caloric intake. Your health is based upon what you eat. Learn to read.

Originally Posted by NoWorries

It definitely matters what you eat...I would have put on a ton of fat if I had fries/pizzas sodas etc. at the same caloric intake.

All calories are not equal. Our bodies our hormonal and react differently to different foods.

I can't believe people actually think this. If you eat 4000 calories of vegetables, monounsaturated fat, fruit, omega-3 fats, complex carbohydrates and a ton of fibre, you will gain the same amount of weight as if you ate 4000 calories of pizza and mcdonalds.

Honestly, tell me something. Tell me exactly what you think a calorie is. It's a unit of measurement of energy. If we didn't utilize the amount of energy we say we do from calories, what the hell is the point?! No, not all macronutrients are equal, that's why we distinguish that 1 g of fat is 9 calories, 1g of protein is 4 calories, and 1g of carbohydrates is 4 calories! This takes into account the energy cost of metabolism.

Originally Posted by NoWorries

I eat almost 100% primal/paleo. If you want more info on that:

Trust me, I don't.

Originally Posted by NoWorries

You can definitely gain strength without putting on weight, you can also gain muscle slowly without eating a ton...it all depends on your goals. But I have yet to see a better way to put on lean mucsle mass quickly with minimal fat gain than eating smart/healthy paleo style diet (add milk if you tolerate it because it does help) coupled with starting strength. Do your research on it and draw your own conclusions.

If I had more time, I could go into more detail and explain my experiences further.

What program would you recommend to the original poster that would be better than starting strength?

First of all, I don't blindly prescribe exercise. I would need to know exactly what his goals are, what his exercise experience is, what he's capable of, etc. A program should be built for the individual. One program should not be shoved down everyone's throats like is so common in the ignorant weight lifting community.

Second, I don't care what you've seen. Science and fact say that hypertrophy and strength gain are totally independent of caloric intake (assuming you're not in a negative balance). Hell, most of your strength gains on an intensity program are neural after the initial hypertrophy phase. Even your ridiculous logic won't be able to explain why you would need more calories for neural adaptations.

If someone needed to eat more to meet their caloric needs for protein synthesis (hypertrophy), that would mean they're malnourished. They aren't getting enough calories/protein/whatever for the body to build the amount of muscle that they should be. You honestly think that everyone who exercises except for the select few idiots who tell everyone to drastically increase their caloric intake is malnourished?!

[Komskies]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I would increase by 5 lbs per dumbbell, so 10 lbs in total.



I guess that is the downfall of using dumbbells, as I was only able to increase the weight in increments of 5 lbs per dumbbell.



Yeah, I just got the second edition, so I will be reading it tonight.

If you work out in a gym you could ask if they have any of these magnetic donut weights:



They come in 1/2 pound increments and you just stick them on the ends of the dumbbells.

[NoWorries]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I would increase by 5 lbs per dumbbell, so 10 lbs in total.



I guess that is the downfall of using dumbbells, as I was only able to increase the weight in increments of 5 lbs per dumbbell.



Yeah, I just got the second edition, so I will be reading it tonight.

Yeah, reading the book will answer a lot if not all of your questions. It describes exactly what to do when you stall. Pay close attention to form - you want to learn the correct frorm right away, even if it means starting at a much lighter wieght than you think you should - check the ego at the door.

If you just started the program and you stalled already though, you are starting too heavy. I would reset the DB weight to no more than 55 lbs and increase by no more than 1 or 2 lbs per DB per workout (hopefully your gym has the magnetic wieghts that Komskies listed below as that is exactly what you need). If you can't do that then I would switch to the barbell and again start conservative and increase by 5 lbs on the barbell.

Good luck and have fun!

Originally Posted by Komskies

If you work out in a gym you could ask if they have any of these magnetic donut weights:



They come in 1/2 pound increments and you just stick them on the ends of the dumbbells.

[NoWorries]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

It doesn't matter what you eat for weight gain if they're the same caloric intake. Your health is based upon what you eat. Learn to read.



I can't believe people actually think this. If you eat 4000 calories of vegetables, monounsaturated fat, fruit, omega-3 fats, complex carbohydrates and a ton of fibre, you will gain the same amount of weight as if you ate 4000 calories of pizza and mcdonalds.

I'll let you do the experiment with this and you can report your results!

For what its worth (and I am sure you won't believe me), I have actually tracked different macro nutrient breakdowns for myself and have found that the same total cals of a higher fat diet 50 - 60% (good healthy fats of course) with protein 30% and the rest of the cals rounded out with carbs have me stay leaner than swapping the fat and carb ratios. If your theory of a calorie is a calorie than my body composition should have stayed the same at the same caloric intake no matter the souce of food. I never even changed the source of the food, just the macro breakdown and I saw differences.

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Honestly, tell me something. Tell me exactly what you think a calorie is. It's a unit of measurement of energy. If we didn't utilize the amount of energy we say we do from calories, what the hell is the point?! No, not all macronutrients are equal, that's why we distinguish that 1 g of fat is 9 calories, 1g of protein is 4 calories, and 1g of carbohydrates is 4 calories! This takes into account the energy cost of metabolism.





Trust me, I don't.

I guess not everyone likes to continually learn and improve. Some people do still think the world is flat after all...

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

First of all, I don't blindly prescribe exercise. I would need to know exactly what his goals are, what his exercise experience is, what he's capable of, etc. A program should be built for the individual. One program should not be shoved down everyone's throats like is so common in the ignorant weight lifting community.

Original Post:
Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength

Anyone else used this workout program before? I've been going to the gym pretty steadily for a little over a year now but I have always mostly focused on doing isolation exercises (bench press being the main exception). Lately, however, I have been doing some research and I have come to the conclusion that this isn't the way that I should be going considering I want to put on mass.
Anyway, I started the Starting Strength program today, beginning with Workout A, and I have to say, I'm a bit underwhelmed considering that it is only 3 exercises and I was out of the gym in no time. For those that have had experience with it, should I add anything to it or should I just stay the course?

He states what his goal is, how long he has been going to the gym and mentions a very reputable program by name and is asking for anyone's opinion on it that has experience with it.

If you have not done the program, what exactly do you know about it?

No one is blindly prescribing anything.

Here is a link to some Mark Rippetoe info and pic of him competing - does he look fat to you?

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_Rippetoe

Some of his numbers from the link:

These are his previous PRs at a weight of 220:
Meet squat: 611, (622 got 2 reds, one depth and one politics)
Gym squat: 600 x 3 Both done in a single-ply Frantz suit.
Meet bench: 396 on an easy 3rd attempt after his foot slipped on the 2nd with that weight.
Meet deadlift: 633 on two separate occasions.
PR Total: 1643
Won the Greater Texas Classic at 198 in 1981.
Retired from PL competition in 1988.

What are your credentials and what program would you tell the Original Poster to follow?

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Second, I don't care what you've seen. Science and fact say that hypertrophy and strength gain are totally independent of caloric intake (assuming you're not in a negative balance). Hell, most of your strength gains on an intensity program are neural after the initial hypertrophy phase. Even your ridiculous logic won't be able to explain why you would need more calories for neural adaptations.

If someone needed to eat more to meet their caloric needs for protein synthesis (hypertrophy), that would mean they're malnourished. They aren't getting enough calories/protein/whatever for the body to build the amount of muscle that they should be. You honestly think that everyone who exercises except for the select few idiots who tell everyone to drastically increase their caloric intake is malnourished?!

Interesting that you don't care. I like hearing and seeing real examples of what a program etc has done for someone. It gives you perspective on what you may expect from it. I like learning from what people are actually doing and applying it. The guys competing know what works and what doesn't long before some scientist. Science has its place, but they can't explain everything.

This has been interesting...

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by NoWorries

Yeah, reading the book will answer a lot if not all of your questions. It describes exactly what to do when you stall. Pay close attention to form - you want to learn the correct frorm right away, even if it means starting at a much lighter wieght than you think you should - check the ego at the door.

That's not an issue for me. I've always been a stickler on form.

If you just started the program and you stalled already though, you are starting too heavy. I would reset the DB weight to no more than 55 lbs and increase by no more than 1 or 2 lbs per DB per workout (hopefully your gym has the magnetic wieghts that Komskies listed below as that is exactly what you need). If you can't do that then I would switch to the barbell and again start conservative and increase by 5 lbs on the barbell.

I think you misunderstood me. I've been doing DB bench press since about June of 2010. It has been just recently that I have stalled at 65 lbs. I'm going to stick to the barbell bench press for this program, and I intend to increase the weight much slower.

Good luck and have fun!

I will. Thanks again for all your help.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by NoWorries

I'll let you do the experiment with this and you can report your results!

For what its worth (and I am sure you won't believe me), I have actually tracked different macro nutrient breakdowns for myself and have found that the same total cals of a higher fat diet 50 - 60% (good healthy fats of course) with protein 30% and the rest of the cals rounded out with carbs have me stay leaner than swapping the fat and carb ratios.

Right. So I should believe some random dude on the internet over accepted physiology. Care to tell me how that would, physiologically, result in less fat gain? Care to explain what exactly a calorie is?

Originally Posted by NoWorries

If your theory of a calorie is a calorie than my body composition should have stayed the same at the same caloric intake no matter the souce of food. I never even changed the source of the food, just the macro breakdown and I saw differences.

My THEORY?! Talk about living blindfolded. My theory happens to be in every basic physiology textbook and paper that is out there. My theory happens to be accepted FACT. There are so many confounding variables and validity issues with your little case study you expect me to believe YOU over science?! Feel free to tell us how exactly your theory works, numbnuts.

Originally Posted by NoWorries

I guess not everyone likes to continually learn and improve. Some people do still think the world is flat after all...

And those 'some people' would be you. Science told us the earth wasn't flat, and now you're saying it's nothing more than a behind-the-times archaic thought process?!

Originally Posted by NoWorries

Interesting that you don't care. I like hearing and seeing real examples of what a program etc has done for someone. It gives you perspective on what you may expect from it. I like learning from what people are actually doing and applying it. The guys competing know what works and what doesn't long before some scientist. Science has its place, but they can't explain everything.

This has been interesting...

Science can explain everything. That's the point of science. I like seeing and hearing examples of people too, but guess what, he's selling you a product. I have no doubt that this program is good. The problem is all the quacks like you who are recommending beginners to eat until they get diabetes/heart disease when they're 40, and lift way out of their goals and capabilities (not saying starting strength necessary meets the latter half of this criteria).