Gestation crates at Smithfield foods

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Draug

I agree ... but unlike Suzles, I am not about to give up eating meat.

Given that, what are my choices? Any producer, of any product, is going to try to maximize profit because the average consumer wont pay a slightly higher price when a cheaper product is right beside it on the shelf. So, how do I know that the next meat producer is any different?

What producer's bacon do you buy? Why?

i have really cut back my meat consumptions over the past 2 years. which is about the same time frame that i have been becoming more aware of how food gets to my plate.

i buy locally raised meats that have not been treated with antibiotics or hormones, and are raised with respect by the farmer. i pay the higher price without even thinking about it now. i usually buy my meat at 2nd to none meats, but am always looking for more local producers.

by buying the 'cheapest' option on the grocery store shelves, we are actually choosing the product with the highest social and environmental costs. these cheap products are heavily subsidized by the industrial food system. if subsidies were removed, you would find that the cheapest option is actually the most expensive.

[northcrunk]

I cant imagine the meat would be good quality after the animal was raised this way. I could see the meat being very poor quality because of the stress of the animal. Even making fois gois ducks have to live in a stress free environment or else it will ruin the meat. No to mention all of the potential problems from infection.

[northcrunk]

Meat is always best fresh.

[Temporary_User]

So what is the alternative here, let them run around free and give them individual vet care? Sounds expensive.
Food prices go up, but it would provide more jobs. More vets, cage builders, etc.

They all appear to be feed and sheltered.

Although very tasty, that is not how the food chain works, pigs are close to the bottom. Humans are at the top.
Not every human has a great lavish life either. I would worry about humans long before I worry about some animal that's only purpose it to provide us with food.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

So abusing them is not right? but killing them and eating is? You people are confused!

If you really care give up all meat!

killing an animal for consumption is called the food chain. we just happen to be the highest rung on the ladder. it is possible to kill an animal quickly with minimal suffering. just as most native peoples do, we must use all the animal as much as possible, to honour the animal for it's sacrifice.

abusing animals is taking advantage of our position of authority on the food chain. abuse should not be tolerated at all.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Kryzsky

Nothing wrong with eating meat, nothing at all. But there is a wrong way to treat creatures that feel pain just as we do. Decent treatment with a swift and humane end, nothing wrong with that either.

Would be nice if people did a bit of research, our money being spent in the right places would change the industry.

every dollar we spend on food is essentially a vote.

buy a burger at mcdonalds? buy a turkey from superstore? you just voted for the industrial food system. (antibiotics, hormones, feed lots, animal abuse, the most expensive environmental option and a major pollution source)

buy a burger that is produced locally? you just voted for keeping your money in the community, helping local farmers, promoting the ethical treatment of animals, most likely antibiotic and hormone free, the most environmentally freindly meat, the product with the lowest carbon footprint and probably the tastiest and healthiest meat to give your family.

think about the choices you make, know where your food comes from, how it was raised and how it got to your plate. most importantly, vote accordingly!

[Stumptown]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

I would worry about humans long before I worry about some animal that's only purpose it to provide us with food.

So you're saying that because some animals have been selectively bred by humans that gives people the right to abuse and torture those animals? I would say it's the opposite. We've bred our domestic animals to be completely dependent on humans, that makes it our responsibility to care for them as best we can.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

So what is the alternative here, let them run around free and give them individual vet care? Sounds expensive.
Food prices go up, but it would provide more jobs. More vets, cage builders, etc.

if they are allowed to run around free, in natural conditions, there is very little need for vet care. most of the issues animals get from living in this type of situation, is a product of their environment. confine hundreds or thousands of animals to small, dirty & inhumane living conditions and you get diseases that can easily spread throughout the entire system. if you allow animals to free range, in plenty of space and natural conditions, there are few diseases that will spread and affect an entire population.

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

They all appear to be feed and sheltered.

i'm not sure if this is arrogance or ignorance. it's actually probably a bit of both. if you believe that simple food and shelter is all that is required, tell us where you live and what you eat? why do you choose to live in a spacious house or apartment when a stick built lean-to would work almost just as well? do you ever treat yourself to good food? why don't you just eat bread and drink water every day? it's because you have a choice, and you choose to live the way you want. these pigs are not given a choice. they are just as important to the diversity of life on this planet as you are. we subject 'meat animals' to severe, disgusting conditions, just so we pay a buck or two less at the grocery store....pathetic.

i think it's time we start start treating all life as equal, and not look down on them as commodities that serve our needs, at any price.

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

Although very tasty, that is not how the food chain works, pigs are close to the bottom. Humans are at the top.
Not every human has a great lavish life either.

the pigs are far from the bottom of the food chain. the 'bottom' of the food chain is bacteria in the ground, that break down organic compounds and turn it into healthy soil, from which we cultivate our food. pigs, when cared for in a free range environment, sift thru the ground litter of forests, enhancing the breakdown of organic material. you could call a pig, a soil builder. their manure drops on the ground, 3 days later larvae form in the dung and provide a nutritious meal for birds and other insects, the dung provide fertilization to the soil.

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

I would worry about humans long before I worry about some animal that's only purpose it to provide us with food.

and it's this kind of attitude that promotes and encourages the industrial food system. a system that is not sustainable and is actually doing more harm that good.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I cant imagine the meat would be good quality after the animal was raised this way. I could see the meat being very poor quality because of the stress of the animal. Even making fois gois ducks have to live in a stress free environment or else it will ruin the meat. No to mention all of the potential problems from infection.

don't get me started on foie gras. force feeding them to enlarge their liver up to 12 times it's normal size!

the truth about foie gras

[Cecil Terwilliger]

There is a fascinating, yet incredibly disturbing, doc that airs on HBO every once and a while.

Called Death on a Factory Farm. There were parts I turned away, they were too effed up.

Looks like some (maybe all) of it is available on youtube.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

every dollar we spend on food is essentially a vote.

buy a burger at mcdonalds? buy a turkey from superstore? you just voted for the industrial food system. (antibiotics, hormones, feed lots, animal abuse, the most expensive environmental option and a major pollution source)

buy a burger that is produced locally? you just voted for keeping your money in the community, helping local farmers, promoting the ethical treatment of animals, most likely antibiotic and hormone free, the most environmentally freindly meat, the product with the lowest carbon footprint and probably the tastiest and healthiest meat to give your family.

think about the choices you make, know where your food comes from, how it was raised and how it got to your plate. most importantly, vote accordingly!

This is BS. Are you still of the mind that McDonald's raises their animals on clear-cut Brazilian Rainforest?

[alltherage]

How did you think they got meat, ask the pigs nicely for an extremity?

Yeah it looks rough but honestly... nothing we've never seen before.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by bcb

This is BS. Are you still of the mind that McDonald's raises their animals on clear-cut Brazilian Rainforest?

what do you mean still? i have never said anything of the sort.

what i am saying is that mcdonald's buys it's beef from producers who maintain CAFO's (concentrated animal feeding operation). it doesn't matter if these CAFO's are from brazil or alberta. these feedlots expose the animals to enormous concentrations of excrement, crowding and poor diet. animals in feedlots are there for the sole purpose to expose them to a fatty diet which enhances the marbling in the meat. the excrement from the feedlots, and the hormones & antibiotics that go with it, are absorbed into the groundwater and aquafers.

did you know that 1 cow produces 120lbs of excrement a day, which is the equivalent to approx. 20 people. so a cow heard of 55,000 produces as much crap as the city of calgary. but, the feedlots are not required by law to treat any of their waste, but calgary is, due to clean water acts. these feedlots are massive polluters on massive scales.

western feedlots has 3 feedlots in southern alberta, with a capacity of 100,000 head. that's as much untreated sewage as 2,000,000 people!

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by alltherage

How did you think they got meat, ask the pigs nicely for an extremity?

Yeah it looks rough but honestly... nothing we've never seen before.

so, because it's been done before, it's the right way to keep doing things?

sounds like the definition of insanity; doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results.

the entire system needs to change in a big way. and the longer people keep their head in the sand, the longer you will see animals being abused and this unsustainable system keep chugging along, all in the name of profit.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

killing an animal for consumption is called the food chain. we just happen to be the highest rung on the ladder. it is possible to kill an animal quickly with minimal suffering. just as most native peoples do, we must use all the animal as much as possible, to honour the animal for it's sacrifice.

abusing animals is taking advantage of our position of authority on the food chain. abuse should not be tolerated at all.

This is a classic argument that has little ground to stand on. Fact of the matter is that near 100% of the pig (or other livestock) is used in a variety of products. I would bet that modern industrial processes can more efficiently utilize a pig than the most respectful Native culture. Watch this TED talk and see for yourself. How can you boycott pig when everything you use is derived from it?

Should livestock be treated and slaughtered humanely? Absolutely. We should not, however, give up on the use of livestock because it is literally a pillar in our manufacturing industry.

This is similar to the people who want us to give up on oil and focus on a "green" energy technologies. That is nice but what about all the other uses that oil has? Oil is the foundation for EVERYTHING in our lives.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

This is a classic argument that has little ground to stand on. Fact of the matter is that near 100% of the pig (or other livestock) is used in a variety of products. I would bet that modern industrial processes can more efficiently utilize a pig than the most respectful Native culture. Watch this TED talk and see for yourself. How can you boycott pig when everything you use is derived from it?

if the small point i made about using the whole animal, is the only thing you objected to, surely you must see how we need to change the system? i was not using it as a base for the argument. all i was doing was pointing out that we can use the whole pig without having to use modern chemicals or industry. i also never said to boycott pig, i simply ask that you choose the right pig.

Originally Posted by Kybosh

Should livestock be treated and slaughtered humanely? Absolutely. We should not, however, give up on the use of livestock because it is literally a pillar in our manufacturing industry.

i don't know nearly enough about how much we rely on animals for industrial uses, so i can't say anything to that. but i would venture to say that i'm sure we could come up with non-animal alternatives for these products if we try hard enough and wanted to make the change.

[Jake]

Since humans have evolved advanced intelligence, we have a higher moral calling. That is why I don't buy the "it's just the food chain" arguments. It is our moral responsibility to treat the animals we consume in a humane way.

The other side of the coin is that we could not support such a large population without cost-effective ranching techniques. This has increased the carrying-capacity of the earth. From a strictly scientific perspective, many people owe their life to the industrial food system.

I found this kind of funny, it came from a Professor at UH (rough quote): "From an evolutionary perspective, humans are the best thing that ever happened to cows".

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

if the small point i made about using the whole animal, is the only thing you objected to, surely you must see how we need to change the system? i was not using it as a base for the argument. all i was doing was pointing out that we can use the whole pig without having to use modern chemicals or industry. i also never said to boycott pig, i simply ask that you choose the right pig.



i don't know nearly enough about how much we rely on animals for industrial uses, so i can't say anything to that. but i would venture to say that i'm sure we could come up with non-animal alternatives for these products if we try hard enough and wanted to make the change.

I wasn't necessarily singling you out. I've just heard that argument a lot.

My biggest "beef" with the livestock industry are two items:
1) Many operations are terribly polluting - as you addressed.
2) I believe that many hormones, antibodies and other chemicals (to quickly grow and mature livestock) are excessive and may be hurting us physiologically.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jake

Since humans have evolved advanced intelligence, we have a higher moral calling. That is why I don't buy the "it's just the food chain" arguments. It is our moral responsibility to treat the animals we consume in a humane way.

The other side of the coin is that we could not support such a large population without cost-effective ranching techniques. This has increased the carrying-capacity of the earth. From a strictly scientific perspective, many people owe their life to the industrial food system.

I found this kind of funny, it came from a Professor at UH (rough quote): "From an evolutionary perspective, humans are the best thing that ever happened to cows".

Actually we would have a larger world carry capacity if we reduced meat comsumption. Land currently being used for Corn and other cattle feed could be used to produce food for humans. THere is definately marginal land that can be most efficiently used for grazing but the conversion rate of plant calories to animal calories is something between 5 and 15 to 1.

[Circa89]

I have walked the floor of the majority of the meat producers in southern Alberta and I can honestly say that nothing comes close to these practices. I am still in awe and disbelief at the sheer quantities of animals killed but these are done in a, ... I won't same humane or respective way, but efficient manner in which very little trauma is brought upon the animals.

One poultry processor in Lethbridge slaughters and prepares 50000 chickens a day!!
The major Pork processor in Lethbridge is humane in their practices.

I have been inside beef, pork and poultry facilities and the vast majority have a CFIA official on site 24 - 7 looking for any infraction into food safety and poor animal husbandry practices.


However these are the slaughter houses and I rarely visit the "farms" where these animals are raised.