Why the Bible is wrong, according to the Bible

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Cheese

So your saying religion is simply a "social"? Further you are suggesting that the social dynamic of man cannot be fulfilled without religion?

No. I'm saying in order to combat the negative aspects of religion one must look at it as largely a social phenomenon. For the record, I'm not religious.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

No. I'm saying in order to combat the negative aspects of religion one must look at it as largely a social phenomenon. For the record, I'm not religious.

So churches should be regarded as kind of like The Society for Creative Anachronism -- but without the cool costumes?

Virtually every remote hamlet has a Lions Club, a softball team, Boy Scout troop and a ladies quilting society. Folks nowadays go to church because they believe in the particular religion. Ain't buyin your social club angle.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Dion

You don't need to knock on doors or send flyers to get your message out. Athiests do an effective job with their billboards and bus ads. Getting people to think and question.

What a drag that must be to the churches

[llama64]

Originally Posted by T@T

Just because your fairy tails can't hold up to a debate don't blame us. if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm agnostic (well, closer to deist). But thanks for assuming my own belief system though. Personally I find the Bible a ridiculous thing to argue over since it's obviously unable to root any significant argument in it. It's completely invalid except in the context of faith.

A scientific "theory" is about as valid as any religious belief to me. There is no actual way to prove the existence of God.

As far as I'm concerned, if God exists, then it stopped giving a crap about the universe it created and is merely watching the show now.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by T@T

What a drag that must be to the churches

Why would it be a drag? I was once a member of a relgious organization and left. A revolving door with people coming and going. I saw many members do the same thing. It's a fallicy to think that religous people don't think and question thier beliefs.

I left because I found organised religion to be too hypocritical. Too much condemnation and trying to be gods themselves as opposed to forgiveness. I studied Mormonisim and found it to be much the same.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Hey, if you got a better theory than Einstein, Darwin, Mendel or any other scientist, feel free to step up to the plate and knock one out of the park, Slugger.

Scientists love to disprove each other. That's how they roll. Come up with the better solution and prove how you solved it and the Nobel is yours.

Go back and read the biographies of those scientists you named. Lets add Galileo, Copernicus and Newton to the mix too (see I can cite "scientists" too!). Tell me what they believed in and why they sought the knowledge that they did. Also, point out where and when any of their theories even comes close to discussing the nature of the universe and belief in a God.

The breed of atheist that drives me nuts is the one who spouts scientific theories without actually knowing much about them nor their context and why the person behind it was even thinking about it.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by llama64

Go back and read the biographies of those scientists you named. Lets add Galileo, Copernicus and Newton to the mix too (see I can cite "scientists" too!). Tell me what they believed in and why they sought the knowledge that they did. Also, point out where and when any of their theories even comes close to discussing the nature of the universe and belief in a God.

The breed of atheist that drives me nuts is the one who spouts scientific theories without actually knowing much about them nor their context and why the person behind it was even thinking about it.

I'm well aware of their backgrounds. In fact, religious institutions did everything in their power to supress and ostracise them.

Again the challenge remains to explain the natural world more comphrehensively that those scientists. Popes Prophet sand Pastors sure as heck aren't.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by llama64

I find atheists more annoying then fundamentalists in a lot of ways.

If a Mormon/Christian comes to my door to spread the good news, I can politely say I don't agree with them and they go away without argument. They even wish me a good day, and possibly offer a nice parting gift (I got a cookie last time, it was delicious).

Any time I've come across an atheist who is spouting off, if you disagree with anything they say they come at you with twin barrels of smug "science" backed arguments and won't let up until you agree with them.

How many threads are started on this forum discussing the "truth" of god and the salvation and whatever else Christians believe? Compare that to the number of atheist threads.

Allow me to refer you to my sig.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by llama64

A scientific "theory" is about as valid as any religious belief to me.

Awesome.

None can be proven true or false so they're all just as likely - QED!

[photon]

Originally Posted by llama64

Again, this is my own experience : I've just found it's pointless trying to have any sort of conversation with atheists about the nature of the world. There is no conversation, just a lecture about how "science" tells us the truth.

Maybe you don't think it's conversation because don't get the perspective of science? Science doesn't tell us "truth" (a loaded word if there ever was one), all knowledge in science is provisional. Science tell us the nature of the reality around us, how to explain and predict phenomenon.

What science does do in that kind of context is set boundary conditions based on observation. So having a conversation and expecting someone to entertain the notion of a flat earth or a 6000 year old earth isn't really reasonable in any context.. so if there's no conversation, maybe it's because there's no conversation to be had? If you have a specific example it might help to understand what you mean.

And I think you are equivocating atheists and a scientific perspective, there are plenty of religious people who understand the power and nature of science, and plenty of atheists who believe in crystal power and remove viewing and such. The two probably overlap significantly, but aren't the same thing.

Originally Posted by llama64

And of course, science is infallible, objective and never open to interpretation.

Well since science is a process it's kind of hard for it to be those things. Anyone who claims science is infallible doesn't understand science, but science is also self correcting. Science isn't always objective, but the whole point of science is to try and be objective. The whole point of science is to remove interpretation, so that if 5 different scientists do the same experiment 5 different times in 5 different places they come up with the same result.

[Day Tripper]

Originally Posted by evman150

Awesome.

None can be proven true or false so they're all just as likely - QED!

Quantum electrodynamics? That's just as valid as Scientology, I suppose.

You ought to throw out your computer, llama. There are things in it that are designed based on Quantum Theory! Throw out your painkillers and trust homeopathy (equally valid).

[photon]

Originally Posted by Dion

It is fair game but it also makes Athiests no better than the Christians.

Originally Posted by Dion

I'm saying both sides are guilty.

What is this, like a competition or a race or something?

Atheism is the absence in belief in any god. Not the claim that someone is better than someone else or that someone is guilty.

People want to communicate their ideas, we're a social species.

Atheism has a negative stigma in our society to the point that people have to hide it to keep their jobs and families. I don't see how a little affirmative action in the form of billboards to try and raise awareness and let non-believers know they're not alone is a bad thing.

I've got no problem with Christians or any other religion putting up billboards, though a lot of them I think are tasteless and push a morally bankrupt philosophy, but I think the "All religions are fair tales" billboard is tasteless as well.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by T@T

Perv.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You must not understand the difference between exercising judgment and administering judgment. Such ignorance will lead a man to destruction.

Yes I have seen you self destruct a few times on here.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by photon

What is this, like a competition or a race or something?

Atheism is the absence in belief in any god. Not the claim that someone is better than someone else or that someone is guilty.

People want to communicate their ideas, we're a social species.

My point was some athiests take offence to religions spreading thier message. All I did was show the opposite side of the coin and what athiests are doing now.

Atheism has a negative stigma in our society to the point that people have to hide it to keep their jobs and families. I don't see how a little affirmative action in the form of billboards to try and raise awareness and let non-believers know they're not alone is a bad thing.

I wasn't aware of the stigma attached to atheism. I had always assumed Christians were of the minority in todays societyand suffered the abuse. If what you say is true ( I don't doubt what you say) then I can see why they would want some affirmative action. That and open discussion is always good.

I've got no problem with Christians or any other religion putting up billboards, though a lot of them I think are tasteless and push a morally bankrupt philosophy, but I think the "All religions are fair tales" billboard is tasteless as well.

I can appreciate some not having problems with billboards and such. I was never one to talk about my beliefs to my friends. Noone even knew I attended a church at one time. Didn't feel it was right to preach to others.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by getbak

Perv.

Yeah, I was searching google for adult video signs and behold...a christian billboard.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by T@T

Yeah, I was searching google for adult video signs and behold...a christian billboard.

I wasn't calling you a perv, if that's what you thought I meant.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Dion

My point was some athiests take offence to religions spreading thier message. All I did was show the opposite side of the coin and what athiests are doing now.

That's true some do, and it's fair to criticize that if they're being inconsistent. But I don't think it's fair to call an entire group "guilty" or "no better" than another group. Groups are made of individuals.. Taking the group as a whole is only valid if discussing some intrinsic feature of the entire group.

Christianity has a set of beliefs that define it, but there's only lack of belief that defines atheists.

Originally Posted by Dion

I wasn't aware of the stigma attached to athiests. I had always assumed Christians were of the minority in todays society. If what you say is true then I can see why they would want some affirmative action. That and open discussion is always good.

Christians outnumber atheists (though Christians themselves will argue strongly about other groups of Christians having the right to call themselves Christian) by a long shot. And I've talked with many many people who cannot be honest about what they think.. even here in Canada.

Originally Posted by Dion

I can appreciate some not having problems with billboards and such. I was never one to talk about my beliefs to my friends. Noone even knew I attended a church at one time. Didn't feel it was right to preach to others.

Everyone's different, when I did that sort of thing, my thought process was that I knew the only way to avoid going to hell and suffering for all eternity.. so I'm morally obligated to share it, if I didn't I'm partially responsible.

I'm kind of in the middle.. I don't go around asking people "hey, did you know that we all evolved from a common ancestor?", but I do enjoy discussing such things when they come up. But then again I also like discussing cars, computers, games, physics, and lots of other things when those topics come up.

I guess I just don't understand why other people don't understand why it is something people want to discuss, believe or not. It's a significant feature of our society and impacts everyone, believe or not.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by getbak

I wasn't calling you a perv, if that's what you thought I meant.

I thought it was obvious you were thinking the same thing I was: "Jesus is watching me at home with my adult video? Kinky!"

[Doctordestiny]

Originally Posted by jammies

Why don't you christians just resort to the "God is beyond our understanding" argument and stop with the convoluted "logic" trying to explain the inexplicable. Clearly your god is not logical, so just run with that, would you?

It's dull listening to the same apologetics that convince only those who already believe. God, if it exists, is a paradoxical being, and the attempts to prove it isn't only make you come across as wilfully blind dogmatics. You can't have omnisicience and free will, you can't have predistination and free will, you can't have omnipotence and free will, all attempts to prove you can might as well go with "God is inexplicable" and be done with it.

You won't believe or agree with any of my points because - bottom line - you're a non-believer, but I disagree with just about everything in your post. We will agree that we can't prove God exists, just as you can't prove he doesn't.

It's because of logic that I believe in God. As wildly illogical as it seems to you, a divine creator is the only thing that makes logical sense to me. It's totally illogical to me that all that we see around us could just happen by chemical occurences and mutations. A creator's hand must be the reason. I believe in evolution as God's tool for creation.

You can have omnipotence and free will. We're not predestined.

God has perfect logic. It's beyond our comprehension to understand His logic, is all.

But, as I said, you won't agree with any of this because bottom line you don't believe in a God. To me, it's the only logical explanation.

You or someone else will come back and say I'm a fool or something like that, and will refute my points. None of us will convince the other, which is why I read but generally refrain from posting in these peeing matches. I will commit to pray for you, however.