[Split] Bible discussion split from Iranian woman to be stoned for adultery

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The events in the bible were probably loosely interpreted around real world events based of perception and interpretation.

But that would negate it being the word of God. Isn't it an infallible text of pure truth from God's mouth to man's ear? If it isn't exactly the word of God, but rather human interpretations of God's word, then gee, can't all of it be a misinterpretation?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

But that would negate it being the word of God. Isn't it an infallible text of pure truth from God's mouth to man's ear? If it isn't exactly the word of God, but rather human interpretations of God's word, then gee, can't all of it be a misinterpretation?

Some people believe that.

I don't.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Nope, I tend to disagree. I think that people are passionate about this discussion because it does effect our every day lives. (Moreso outside of Canada, but here nonetheless)
The US has a large group of passionate Christians who use their power and money to affect law and order in any way they possibly can.
Canada and Europe have their own issues with a large influx of Muslims starting to push their influence. (moreso Europe, but making inroads here)
No one would care one iota if they kept to themselves, if they practiced what they preached, and did not attempt to force their views on the rest of society.
Unfortunately religions have a job to do, bring more people into its confines, or perish. The Mormons do a great job of this and others work in their own mysterious ways.
None of this is percieved...its out in the open and quite clear.

Their is a perception that Muslims are taking over Europe and eventually NA. But I don't think that is the case. Every country has rejected the implementation of Islamic law and terrorism has been minimal to non-exsitant. A better statement would be that politicians in the west have used a percieved Muslim threat in order to consolidate votes and increase the power of governments.

As for religions job of recruiting I don't see any issue with that. Mcdonalds advertises, Walmart recruits, Door to Door Salesmen sell security systems, electricity contracts and religion. What is the difference (assuming there is no god) between the religious product that is being sold door to door and a security system. Both are unnecessary, both cost you money and both groups annoy you by trying to sell you something you don't need.

Other than the Gay/Lesbian issues religion just doens't effect people in the first world.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And I'm willing to take on the beliefs and values of the Christians the same way that I take on the Conservatives and Republicans (though the three overlapping circles would hardly be distinguishable).

To get back to Mr. Coffee's question, I have no problem with people having their faith, be it Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or Jewish. I, myself, am Pastafarian. To each their own.

My issue, as per above, is when they try to influence policy. Last week we had two gay marriage threads. Most of those opposed to giving gays the same rights as heterosexuals were by and large religious people. And their primary justification has nothing to do with reason or logic. It's "this book written thousands of years ago says these people are sinners". You can't debate that. It's virtually impossible to reason with those that have built their values solely around an old book.

Favorite colours or favorite flavour ice creams do not impact public policy on the environment, human rights or social justice. Therefore I don't care.

1. Marriage is not a right
2. Threads are not policy.
3. Grow up. People form policy ON THEIR BELIEFS. Go figure. Disqualifying someone due to their beliefs is a far greater crime than debating same sex marriage from a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Atheist/Zoroastrian perspective.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by GGG

Their is a perception that Muslims are taking over Europe and eventually NA. But I don't think that is the case. Every country has rejected the implementation of Islamic law and terrorism has been minimal to non-exsitant. A better statement would be that politicians in the west have used a percieved Muslim threat in order to consolidate votes and increase the power of governments.

As for religions job of recruiting I don't see any issue with that. Mcdonalds advertises, Walmart recruits, Door to Door Salesmen sell security systems, electricity contracts and religion. What is the difference (assuming there is no god) between the religious product that is being sold door to door and a security system. Both are unnecessary, both cost you money and both groups annoy you by trying to sell you something you don't need.

Other than the Gay/Lesbian issues religion just doens't effect people in the first world.

I noted that there was a larger "influence" of Muslims in Europe and Canada, that doesn't necessarily mean taking over or terrorism. It does mean they are trying to change laws or perceptions, which could in time lead to a society that is based more on their values than the one we have today.
France has had significant issues with Muslims in the last few years, so much so that their leader stood out by suggesting they could not wear the Hajib in public. Britain has had struggles as well and the well documented cartoon issue of a few years ago certainly caused strife as well.
Canada has seen the Muslim population recently try to introduce Sharia law, and Quebec has had its own issues with the Hajib.
All of these issues will only grow as the Muslim population grows and begins to take larger voting blocks. In Canada there are at least 6 or 7 full ridings that can affect the vote at this time. Not enough to sway a vote, but those 6 or 7 "could grow" much more significantly as Muslim families continue to have larger families and the average North American family shrinks.
Again...Walmart, Artists, Door to Door salesmen or dildo salesmen dont bother anyone...they dont want to change anything more than how much we spend, hang on our walls or how much fun we have with sex.

The ONE thing both have in common..Gay rights, one group shuns them, the other kills them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

But that would negate it being the word of God. Isn't it an infallible text of pure truth from God's mouth to man's ear? If it isn't exactly the word of God, but rather human interpretations of God's word, then gee, can't all of it be a misinterpretation?

I really think that people are confusing fundamentalist Christians and evangelical Christians who believe that the bible is the word of god, and the run of the mill Christian who probably believes that the bible is not the word of god or written by god but is inspired by events that could be interpreted as linked to Gods actions.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...oah-flood.html



Why live your life having your bias close your mind?

Closed mind...

Any bias that I have comes from facts not fantasy's. the story of Noah is just that..a story. Genesis says every last animal on the planet died except for the ones on Noah's Ark. this was brought on because except for eight people every other person on the planet were evil and needed to be killed. Holy jumpin Jesus! If anyone believes this crap their dumber than the paint on the wall in front of them.

Fact: there has been no global flood that threatened life on this planet since humans evolved.

Fact: Local floodings such as the Black sea flooding are documented long before christianity even existed, the Sumerians, the egyptians..etc.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by T@T

Any bias that I have comes from facts not fantasy's. the story of Noah is just that..a story. Genesis says every last animal on the planet died except for the ones on Noah's Ark. this was brought on because except for eight people every other person on the planet were evil and needed to be killed. Holy jumpin Jesus! If anyone believes this crap their dumber than the paint on the wall in front of them.

If you want to take a document filled with details passed on from generation to generation (much like Native American folklore), by much more primitive humans literally, all the more power to you.

Originally Posted by T@T

Fact: there has been no global flood that threatened life on this planet since humans evolved.

True, but like i have said and others, it is about perception. All this account tells us is that a great flood took place the effected a large range of our ancestors. The rest is just filler by our ancestors who didn't know any better.

[/QUOTE]
Fact: Local floodings such as the Black sea flooding are documented long before christianity even existed, the Sumerians, the egyptians..etc.[/QUOTE]

Right and like it has been said the bible is merely just a collection of accounts from human history passed down from generation to generation and eventually put into written form. This quote suggest to me that you think i a group of people got together in a few days and wrote a book. Not true.

You have to distinguish from what is just filler by primitive humans trying to fill in the blanks.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

You have to distinguish from what is just filler by primitive humans trying to fill in the blanks.

Fill in the blanks eh? Tell me how come the Holy Quran states that the universe is expanding, 1400 years before this idea came into the forefront of science? Amongst numerous other "blanks" the human is coming to realize only now...

[T@T]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Right and like it has been said the bible is merely just a collection of accounts from human history passed down from generation to generation and eventually put into written form. This quote suggest to me that you think i a group of people got together in a few days and wrote a book. Not true.

You have to distinguish from what is just filler by primitive humans trying to fill in the blanks.

Totally agree.

I have no problem thinking of the bible in these terms because that's exactly what it is, a bunch of twisted up tales passed down for thousands of years.

What I do have a problem with is people using old fairy tale gospel as truth and killing people over it. I personally believe human kind has evolved enough that religion should be a non factor in a good clean life.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Fill in the blanks eh? Tell me how come the Holy Quran states that the universe is expanding, 1400 years before this idea came into the forefront of science? Amongst numerous other "blanks" the human is coming to realize only now...

Are you talking about the one small sentence of the prophet Muhammad?

and the heaven we created with might, and indeed we are (its) expander

Sorry I have a hard time believing he was talking about galaxys moving away from each other considering he also thought everything revolved around this flat earth. He probably thought the moon was made of cheese as well.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by T@T

Are you talking about the one small sentence of the prophet Muhammad?


Sorry I have a hard time believing he was talking about galaxys moving away from each other considering he also thought everything revolved around this flat earth. He probably thought the moon was made of cheese as well.

Very nice of you to make assumptions. You seem like a neutral person to converse with... But allow me to reply to you:

"The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). This is not just a small sentence, and if you think so, then so be it.

The Holy Quran states too, that the earth is roundish in shape. Flat? No, it states this earth is vast and spread for the humans, but it specifically states the shape of the earth as almost egg-shaped, which is in fact true.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by GGG

Their is a perception that Muslims are taking over Europe and eventually NA. But I don't think that is the case. Every country has rejected the implementation of Islamic law and terrorism has been minimal to non-exsitant. A better statement would be that politicians in the west have used a percieved Muslim threat in order to consolidate votes and increase the power of governments.

As for religions job of recruiting I don't see any issue with that. Mcdonalds advertises, Walmart recruits, Door to Door Salesmen sell security systems, electricity contracts and religion. What is the difference (assuming there is no god) between the religious product that is being sold door to door and a security system. Both are unnecessary, both cost you money and both groups annoy you by trying to sell you something you don't need.

Other than the Gay/Lesbian issues religion just doens't effect people in the first world.

I have missed a lot in this thread after going away for the weekend, but here is a response to a a few things you said.

The recruiting bothers me because of how they do it a lot of the time. Walmart recruits for people to work in their stores. Horror stories aside regarding their policies, they are recruiting to function and provide a service.

A religion recruiting comes in different forms than an advertisement in the wanted ads. Often it comes as a string attached to aid directed at vulnerable peoples via charities. Sometimes it comes door to door. Sometimes it is very benign at heart.

What bothers me is when there is a sting attached with aid, or when they prey on other vulnerabilities such as fear, insecurity or providing a false sense of hope. That especially is despicable to me. To capitalize and recruit based on offering answers to what happens after death, and basically saying that you get a grand eternal life if you follow us, hell if you don't, is disgusting. It is disguised as a much nicer thing, but that is essentially what it is. Oh, and perhaps you can meet your loved ones too. The emotions that it preys on do in fact sicken me, because good people can be taken in so easily. All this just to sustain the machine that is organized religion, and feed the bank account.

Every sell is people trying to convince you that you need their product. Religion is no different, except that their product is nothing. It is the biggest con job of all time. There is nothing substantial other than perhaps the community that comes with it (which is full of many good people), and that community does not exist because of the church. It could just as easily exist outside of it.

[Savvy27]

The earth is not shaped like an egg. Get your science from science books, not holy books.

The shape of the Earth is very close to that of an oblate spheroid, a sphere flattened along the axis from pole to pole such that there is a bulge around the equator.[59] (Wikipedia)

Original topic: people who throw rocks at other people until they die are insane, especially over something like adultery.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

The earth is not shaped like an egg. Get your science from science books, not holy books.

The shape of the Earth is very close to that of an oblate spheroid, a sphere flattened along the axis from pole to pole such that there is a bulge around the equator.[59] (Wikipedia)

Original topic: people who throw rocks at other people until they die are insane, especially over something like adultery.

Oblate spheroid is similar to egg-shape...


There are numerous scientific findings beyond these such as embryology and advanced physics.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Very nice of you to make assumptions. You seem like a neutral person to converse with... But allow me to reply to you:

"The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). This is not just a small sentence, and if you think so, then so be it.

The Holy Quran states too, that the earth is roundish in shape. Flat? No, it states this earth is vast and spread for the humans, but it specifically states the shape of the earth as almost egg-shaped, which is in fact true.

My understanding of the Quran shows me it's written by people a lot smarter than the Christians Bible. In the Quran there are a lot of multiple meanings, for instance the "egg-shaped" earth is construed threw calling the earth an egg for human kind.

As far as the expanding heavens, if you take those words as the expanding universe why did the Quran also say it'll shrink back again? Science shows this will not happen, at least in human kinds existence on this planet.

All in all though the Quran is brilliant if you want a book to suck in people to take up a religion, 10x better than the Holy Bible

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by spiteface

The Holy Quran states too, that the earth is roundish in shape. Flat? No, it states this earth is vast and spread for the humans, but it specifically states the shape of the earth as almost egg-shaped, which is in fact true.

The earth is not ovular in shape like an egg is. The "regular" shape that most closely approximates the earth is an ellipsoid, albeit one with a relatively small flattening.

In reality, the earth is actually not flat, spherical, ovular or ellipsoidal. It is what it is, the geoid. An irregular shape that some people spend their careers trying to measure as accurately as possible which in turn has an impact on a wide range of applications.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by T@T

My understanding of the Quran shows me it's written by people a lot smarter than the Christians Bible. In the Quran there are a lot of multiple meanings, for instance the "egg-shaped" earth is construed threw calling the earth an egg for human kind.

As far as the expanding heavens, if you take those words as the expanding universe why did the Quran also say it'll shrink back again? Science shows this will not happen, at least in human kinds existence on this planet.

All in all though the Quran is brilliant if you want a book to suck in people to take up a religion, 10x better than the Holy Bible

I think to make an assumption of how this universe shall end is not fair as we cannot say with 100% certainty what can or will happen, when it does happen.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Oblate spheroid is similar to egg-shape...


There are numerous scientific findings beyond these such as embryology and advanced physics.

True, but lets face facts, the earth is more round than egg-shaped. that's like arguing if a baseball if perfectly round.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

The earth is not ovular in shape like an egg is. The "regular" shape that most closely approximates the earth is an ellipsoid, albeit one with a relatively small flattening.

In reality, the earth is actually not flat, spherical, ovular or ellipsoidal. It is what it is, the geoid. An irregular shape that some people spend their careers trying to measure as accurately as possible which in turn has an impact on a wide range of applications.

Its more of a similitude. Obviously scientists will continue to evolve their nomenclature based on their most accurate data.