ATV's and how dangerous they are.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Rerun have you ridden a quad before?

Yes... I also offroad my 4x4 truck frequently.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Yes... I also offroad my 4x4 truck frequently.

Then how can you not see that a lot of what you are proposing would either:

1. Make quads impractical for a lot of what people use them for

2. Make them less safe

3. Has already been done

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

What if that's the whole reason you're using the quad in the first place?

Tow a trailer

Originally Posted by frinkprof

There's warning labels on quads that recommend you don't do this. They are already designed for one person only.

Warning labels... hah. You see lots of quads where two people are riding in tandem.
Lets make this illegal. If you want to ride with a passenger, buy a side x side quad.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Then how can you not see that a lot of what you are proposing would either:

1. Make quads impractical for a lot of what people use them for

2. Make them less safe

3. Has already been done

Give me examples please.

[Rerun]

Maybe they should just ban the inheirently unstable existing quad design (like they did with the 3-wheeler) and start producing atv's like this...

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Tow a trailer

Again, impractical.

Originally Posted by Rerun

Warning labels... hah. You see lots of quads where two people are riding in tandem.
Lets make this illegal. If you want to ride with a passenger, buy a side x side quad.

How do you enforce it?

Originally Posted by Rerun

Give me examples please.

1. Less practical - not being able to tie down items to the racks on the quad. Roll bars would increase the dimensions of the quad making it much more difficult or impossible to pass by or under obstacles.

"Get rid of all the gear and stuff that people attach to the top of the quad which in fact raises the center of gravity."

"Roll bars... a single roll bar will go a long way towards protecting the driver in a rollover situation.. provided the driver can stay on the vehicle"

2. Less safe - seatbelts. Flash Walken covered this. Without roll bars or a roof, if you are strapped to a rolling quad, the first thing that hits the ground is likely your neck/head with no way to get out of it.

".... and thats where seat belts come into play."

3. Already been done - already designed for one person

"Make atvs ONE person only. Passengers negatively affect the stability and handling characteristics."

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Again, impractical.

How do you enforce it?


1. Less practical - not being able to tie down items to the racks on the quad. Roll bars would increase the dimensions of the quad making it much more difficult or impossible to pass by or under obstacles.

"Get rid of all the gear and stuff that people attach to the top of the quad which in fact raises the center of gravity."

"Roll bars... a single roll bar will go a long way towards protecting the driver in a rollover situation.. provided the driver can stay on the vehicle"

2. Less safe - seatbelts. Flash Walken covered this. Without roll bars or a roof, if you are strapped to a rolling quad, the first thing that hits the ground is likely your neck/head with no way to get out of it.

".... and thats where seat belts come into play."

3. Already been done - already designed for one person

"Make atvs ONE person only. Passengers negatively affect the stability and handling characteristics."

Of course you wouldn't want a seat belt on a quad if there was no roll bar. That would be stupid. In my post, the installation of seat belts were specifically tied to there being a roll bar.

Also, a roll bar could be installed that was no wider than the maximum width of the atv and as for your height example... thats silly. I doubt I have ever travelled down an atv trail where I have had to duck in order to get under something on the trail. A single side to side roll bar on an atv would be no hinderence at all.

As for one person atvs, there are lots of quads out there designed to carry 2 people in tandem... which in my opinion is stupid.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Rerun
Warning labels... hah. You see lots of quads where two people are riding in tandem.
Lets make this illegal. If you want to ride with a passenger, buy a side x side quad.

Originally Posted by frinkprof

How do you enforce it?

When I'm out 4x4ing I see SRD officers out there all the time. Enforcement would not be a problem.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Of course you wouldn't want a seat belt on a quad if there was no roll bar. That would be stupid. In my post, the installation of seat belts were specifically tied to there being a roll bar.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Rerun

Also, a roll bar could be installed that was no wider than the maximum width of the atv and as for your height example... thats silly. I doubt I have ever travelled down an atv trail where I have had to duck in order to get under something on the trail. A single side to side roll bar on an atv would be no hinderence at all.

I have. Several times. Overgrown cutlines or narrow trails in forested areas with lots of overhanging branches. Also, ever try to get a quad through a barbed wire fence without travelling miles around to find a gate, if there even is one?

Originally Posted by Rerun

As for one person atvs, there are lots of quads out there designed to carry 2 people in tandem... which in my opinion is stupid.

Agreed.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Rerun
Tow a trailer

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Again, impractical.

Not impractical. Perhaps inconvenient.... but definitely not impractical

A pintle hitch hook up on a small trailer would work very well in off road situations.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Fair enough.

I have. Several times. Overgrown cutlines or narrow trails in forested areas with lots of overhanging branches. Also, ever try to get a quad through a barbed wire fence without travelling miles around to find a gate, if there even is one?

Agreed.

Over hanging branches are usually small enough in diameter that they are quite flexible and would easily pass over a roll bar.

As for the barbed wire fence example... I've never traveled a trail that ended up being closed off by a fence... unless the fence was there specifically to keep people out.

[frinkprof]

I'm thinking our differences stem from using quads for work vs. pleasure.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I'm thinking our differences stem from using quads for work vs. pleasure.

That could be. I'm primarily thinking of the untrained and inexperienced city guy who gets out on his quad just a few weekends a year.... for fun and excitement.


... or his 14 year old kid.... which is even worse.

[Berger_4_]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Increased weight at the lowest point of the quad to lower the center of gravity

You can't get the weight any lower on quads without decreasing your ground clearance. No ground clearance = no use for quad.

Get rid of all the gear and stuff that people attach to the top of the quad which in fact raises the center of gravity.

That makes no sense, since this is basically what quads are designed to do. They help you haul tools and stuff into the bush instead of packing stuff in by hand. And besides, a couple of chainsaws and a toolbox isn't increasing the centre of gravity that much.

Make atvs ONE person only. Passengers negatively affect the stability and handling characteristics.

It was already mentioned that every quad has a warning label saying no passengers. This would be impossible to enforce. Also, what about the 2 up seats that have been designed and passed by CSA that are currently in use? If CSA thinks it's fine, what's wrong with it?

Have some kind of rollover warning device that will sound when you are approaching the stability angle limit, thus giving you time to make corrections.

How much will that cost you? And most rollovers happen at a high rate of speed. A beeper going off when you're 2/3 of the way over and travelling at 60 km/h isn't going to help at all. The only time that would be useful is if you're travelling at a low rate of speed and have time to jump off the quad.

Increasing track width by inches will help a lot with there stability. Just 1 foot extra width will go a long way.

A foot wider, and the quad is the width of a small car. I've driven quads with offset tires, and those few inches on each side are a real bitch to deal with when you get into tight areas.

Set standards for tire width. Wider tires are better for stability than narrow ones.

Have you ever looked at quad tires? They're just as wide, if not wider than most car tires. There aren't piddly-ass golf cart tires on these things.

Roll bars... a single roll bar will go a long way towards protecting the driver in a rollover situation.. provided the driver can stay on the vehicle

So basically, you think quads should become Honda Odyssey's (the old atv style, not the car). And again, the accessibility becomes a huge issue.

.... and thats where seat belts come into play.

If you want an atv with a seat belt and a roll cage, they are readily available. We own one ourselves. It's a side by side, and both seats have belts attached to them. However, it's completely useless if you need to get into some brush. It's simply to big to get anywhere.

You seem to be thinking of quads solely for recreational use out on wide trails, where most people wouldn't need all this safety stuff anyway. The majority of quads are used for work, and I can assure you anybody who uses a quad for that purpose would remove all your safety measures as soon as they could.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Not impractical. Perhaps inconvenient.... but definitely not impractical

A pintle hitch hook up on a small trailer would work very well in off road situations.

I can picture crossing a creek, riding through a cutblock, or winching the quad up a steep embankment being much more difficult with a trailer hitched behind the quad. Likely impossible in many cases.

Originally Posted by Rerun

That could be. I'm primarily thinking of the untrained and inexperienced city guy who gets out on his quad just a few weekends a year.... for fun and excitement.


... or his 14 year old kid.... which is even worse.

I can see where you're going with that. I think more people should take ATV training courses. Any experience you can get will make you a better rider. Not sure if legislating it would be necessary though.

[BlackArcher101]

I always find it funny that some feel there is a need to protect others from possible dangers while doing something recreational. Something that person isn't forced to do anything dangerous, but if given the option, sometimes decides to ride that fine line of danger.

Sure there's probably room for improvements, but they won't be made all of a sudden. Until that happens, let others make their own decision whether or not their own life is worth the risk.

And roll bars do squat. Had a co-worker die on a ATV with roll bar. Ended up hitting his head in the rollover. Unless a person is strapped in with a 5 point harness into a racing seat with foam pading on a roll cage all around their head, injuries will always happen. Especially when safety features are added, but still not used properly, just like ATV's without the safety features.

You can't protect the unwilling/stupid.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Berger_4_

You can't get the weight any lower on quads without decreasing your ground clearance. No ground clearance = no use for quad.

I didn't say lower the ground clearance. I said increase the weight at the existing ground clearance



That makes no sense, since this is basically what quads are designed to do. They help you haul tools and stuff into the bush instead of packing stuff in by hand. And besides, a couple of chainsaws and a toolbox isn't increasing the centre of gravity that much.

Fair enough if you are using the quad for work... but I suspect that most people who use a quad in their work are very experienced operators.... unlike the majority of owners who are weekend quad warriors and sometimes get carried away with the "fun of it all" and they let the machine get away from them.



It was already mentioned that every quad has a warning label saying no passengers. This would be impossible to enforce. Also, what about the 2 up seats that have been designed and passed by CSA that are currently in use? If CSA thinks it's fine, what's wrong with it?

No it wouldn't be impossible to enforce. There are fish cops and srd officers out in the bush all the time.... particularly if its in a location where people tend to go to offroad. And just because the CSA has approved it doesn't mean its not dangerous. The CSA just follows the lead of the regulatory bodies in the USA.



How much will that cost you? And most rollovers happen at a high rate of speed. A beeper going off when you're 2/3 of the way over and travelling at 60 km/h isn't going to help at all. The only time that would be useful is if you're travelling at a low rate of speed and have time to jump off the quad.

Not sure what the cost would be but I doubt it would be overly expensive. Yes you are right... a beeper going off at 60 kph isn't going to help you... but should you be traveling 60 kph where the terrain is uneven?



A foot wider, and the quad is the width of a small car. I've driven quads with offset tires, and those few inches on each side are a real bitch to deal with when you get into tight areas.

Ya... maybe a mini or a smart car.... and ya.. you would have slightly decreased ability to get through those tight areas.... but some times life's a bitch and you just have to find another way around the problem



Have you ever looked at quad tires? They're just as wide, if not wider than most car tires. There aren't piddly-ass golf cart tires on these things.

Some are... some aren't. Some quads have fairly narrow and tall tires... thus making the machine even more unstable



So basically, you think quads should become Honda Odyssey's (the old atv style, not the car). And again, the accessibility becomes a huge issue.

Maybe something like that... but with and updated/improved design and I was thinking more of a single side to side roll bar, not a roll cage. But the cage could work too... maybe.



If you want an atv with a seat belt and a roll cage, they are readily available. We own one ourselves. It's a side by side, and both seats have belts attached to them. However, it's completely useless if you need to get into some brush. It's simply to big to get anywhere.

I think this is perfect for the average inexperienced Sunday atv operator who generally is out on the trails of places like Waiparous and McLean Creek

You seem to be thinking of quads solely for recreational use out on wide trails, where most people wouldn't need all this safety stuff anyway.

Yes I am and yes they do.



The majority of quads are used for work,

I doubt the majority of quads are used for work....
ATV sales are a multi million dollar business and I bet the majority of those sales are to John Q Public



....and I can assure you anybody who uses a quad for that purpose would remove all your safety measures as soon as they could.

Possibly... but I would suggest that the majority of people who are injured or killed in atv accidents are not workers who are using the atv as another tool to do their job.

See bolded answers.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by Rerun

That could be. I'm primarily thinking of the untrained and inexperienced city guy who gets out on his quad just a few weekends a year.... for fun and excitement.


... or his 14 year old kid.... which is even worse.

At some point, people need to be responsible for themselves... more legislation and idiot-proof rules arent always the answer.

And for the 14 year old, that responsibility falls to the parent to teach their child to be self thinking by the time they are 14, and have the child realize a quad is something to be respected. A smart, responsible, intelligent 14 year old has nothing to fear on a quad unless they are still too lite to operate them properly.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I can see where you're going with that. I think more people should take ATV training courses. Any experience you can get will make you a better rider. Not sure if legislating it would be necessary though.

I agree. You have to be licensed to drive a car, a motorcycle, a boat now, and even a snowmobile in some provinces...

Why not a quad?... what could happen other than save a few lives and prevent some serious injuries.

Take the course.... get your license.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Sure there's probably room for improvements, but they won't be made all of a sudden. Until that happens, let others make their own decision whether or not their own life is worth the risk.

Nothing has changed for the past 21 years... and things won't improve until the government forces the industry to make the changes....

.... not unlike the automobile industry over the past 20 years.