Report: Israel storms Gaza-bound aid ships

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I think that better than anything illustrates that the opposition the IDF encountered wasn't as serious as is claimed.

It's both saddening and interesting to watch people consume state propaganda so readily based on their personal biases.

Note that Avigdor Lieberman has already morphed this situation from a flotilla of aid ships in international waters to terror supporters undermining the sovereignty of Israel.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Good God, man, it's impossible to talk with you. Are you that obsessed with "secret" anti-Semite conspiracies that you believe every random poster on the internet is secretly plotting against them? Don't tell me what I believe or don't believe -- you're better off doing that in your YouTube posts, not on CP. All you're doing is making yourself look like an over-reactive fool.

If you call two sources that have been regurgitated amongst all the news outlets -- an unnamed commando and an unnamed "military spokesperson" -- as quite well documented, I'm not sure what to say.

Back away from your computer, take a deep breath, and try not to take what people say online quite so personally. Your health will be better off for it, bud.

You do realize that Israel has been using anti-riot paintball guns for years, right?

Why is it so strange to believe that they used them now?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Out of curiosity, how long are the Palestinian's supposed to whine for simple necessities?

6 months? 1 year? Should they whine in the New York Times or the Guardian?

Maybe the Hamas government in place should negotiate in good faith instead of using peaceful periods to rearm themselves.

While Israel needs to do more to settle this affair there are two sides to this whole f'd up situation including a government that teaches hatred and genocide while seeing their own citizen's as political pawns and disposable assets instead of actually doing more to assist them in getting out of this situation.

There is plenty of blame on both sides, but it will never be resolved as long as neither side has anything to bargain about.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

What epic back-track? I've stated from the beginning that this incident is most likely a mix of Israeli violence and "aid worker" violence. No s*** they have a secondary weapon.

You're the only one foolish enough to think this type of event is black-and-white. Your attempts at labeling everyone else as having some sort of secret agenda is humorous considering your blind defending of the Israelis.

The only person I labeled has been longsuffering, and he has a long history on CP of blaming Israel no matter what went down.

To me the event is quite black and white. Ship was told to stop, ship was given instructions for a peaceful compromise, ship didn't listen, ship ignored a blockade put in place by Israel AND Egypt, ship was boarded by commandos, passengers got violent, began beating commandos, commandos defended themselves and people died.

Out of all the reports, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Now, what is debatable is whether or not the ship had weapons or not.

But you do realize of course that 6 ships were boarded, right? How many of them were violent in the process?

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Azure

You do realize that Israel has been using anti-riot paintball guns for years, right?

Why is it so strange to believe that they used them now?

Because you're boarding a ship from a helicopter one at a time in fairly close quarters, that has already refused to obey your demands, and who you suspect of aiding the country you're at war with? This wasn't a riot where you can unload high-powered paintballs down upon the protesters from a distance.

I don't see why you have such an issue with this, anyway. When the military does an action like this, I believe THEY should be as well armed as they possibly can be, I don't care what military it is. It has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on the matter of this boarding besides the fact that the Israelis are notorious for releasing cloudy military reports to the public.

You're just so eager to jump on anything said about Israel that you try and construe it as negatively as possible to fit your own over-reactive manner on the topic.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Azure

The only person I labeled has been longsuffering, and he has a long history on CP of blaming Israel no matter what went down.

To me the event is quite black and white. Ship was told to stop, ship was given instructions for a peaceful compromise, ship didn't listen, ship ignored a blockade put in place by Israel AND Egypt, ship was boarded by commandos, passengers got violent, began beating commandos, commandos defended themselves and people died.

Out of all the reports, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Now, what is debatable is whether or not the ship had weapons or not.

But you do realize of course that 6 ships were boarded, right? How many of them were violent in the process?

Which is exactly what I said earlier. Why was this one ship violent, especially when it didn't JUST have a bunch of Hamas-sympathizing Palestinians on it? Germany has already confirmed that they had citizens on it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

It's both saddening and interesting to watch people consume state propaganda so readily based on their personal biases.

You can see the video of what the resistance was. It clearly shows soldiers being attacked. They also have a soldier with bullet wounds in him. How is that state propaganda?

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Note that Avigdor Lieberman has already morphed this situation from a flotilla of aid ships in international waters to terror supporters undermining the sovereignty of Israel.

When in reality it was just foreign nationals entering Israel agaisnt their will to deliver goods to Hamas, which is a terrorist organization....oh wait.

[flylock shox]

Regardless of whether the violence here was an intended result of the flotilla, this incident is more bad news for Israel. They're bleeding international support, and it's likely only going to get worse in the near future as they won't be changing their hard-line approach to conflict any time soon. I get the sense things may be coming to a head in the near future.

On a side note, I'm repeatedly struck by the quality of discussion and reporting in Israeli media about Israeli news and politics as compared with that in the American media. It's almost like there's a taboo in the US when it comes to discussion/criticism of Israel. Here's a leftist opinion piece from Haaretz that exemplifies some of the type of discussion so rarely seen here.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Regardless of whether the violence here was an intended result of the flotilla, this incident is more bad news for Israel. They're bleeding international support, and it's likely only going to get worse in the near future as they won't be changing their hard-line approach to conflict any time soon. I get the sense things may be coming to a head in the near future.

On a side note, I'm repeatedly struck by the quality of discussion and reporting in Israeli media about Israeli news and politics as compared with that in the American media. It's almost like there's a taboo in the US when it comes to discussion/criticism of Israel. Here's a leftist opinion piece from Haaretz that exemplifies some of the type of discussion so rarely seen here.

I think the difference between this kind of leftist debate and the kind from the extreme left in North America, is that this is a lot more reasonable. The emphasis is not on depecting Israel as an enemy and illegitimate from the start. It actually focusses on constructive change as oppossed to attack. It also doesn't try to depict terrorists as saints.

I don't think much of if any of the anti-Israeli crowd has learnt to do that yet. Usually we just get irrational attacks or old anti-semitic propaganda with the work Israeli inserted where the word Jew used to be.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

A nation known for being trigger-happy, and people are just assuming they were the victims? When it comes to Israel, I believe about as much as they say as I would when the Soviets would release info.

I want more information to come out before I condemn either side. As is the most common situation, it was likely mistakes made on both sides. Over-aggressive brainwashed Zionist commandos versus messiah-complex, martyr wannabe "peace" activists.

If the "humanitarian" workers attacked me with pipes and such, I'd open fire, too. If, however, a bunch of souped-up commandos opened fire on me, I'd attack 'em, too. So it can go both ways.

We need more info. Also, there have been no reports of there being firearms on the ship. Just pipes and knives.

Originally Posted by blankall

I agree definitely more info required.

As far as firearms, the IDF is saying the firearms were taken from the downed Israeli soldiers. They are saying at least one soldier was shot before they opened fire.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...9&postcount=39

Right in this thread for your eyes to see. They were laying in wait and attacked the soldiers.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

You can see the video of what the resistance was. It clearly shows soldiers being attacked. They also have a soldier with bullet wounds in him. How is that state propaganda?

The state propaganda part is Lieberman claiming that this was an attack on Israel's sovereignty. The asymmetric nature of the response to the action is typical of state propaganda.

Originally Posted by blankall

When in reality it was just foreign nationals entering Israel agaisnt their will to deliver goods to Hamas, which is a terrorist organization....oh wait

Oh, I didn't realize they were delivering goods to Hamas. I've not read that part of the story yet. Can you link me to this info?

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Maybe you missed the ludicrous assertion they landed on the ship with paintball guns.

Dude, load up the clip you posted at the 50 second mark, I may be no weapons expert but that sure as hell looks like a paintball gun to me, hell thats what i thought it looked like before anyone made any mention of it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

It's both saddening and interesting to watch people consume state propaganda so readily based on their personal biases.

About as saddening and interesting as watching people reject state explanations so readily based on their personal biases, no?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

About as saddening and interesting as watching people reject state explanations so readily based on their personal biases, no?

Absolutely.

But I think it is a demonstrably false proposition to pretend that a flotilla of 6 ships filled mostly with non-soldiers is a legitimate threat to the sovereignty of the state of Israel.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Absolutely.

But I think it is a demonstrably false proposition to pretend that a flotilla of 6 ships filled mostly with non-soldiers is a legitimate threat to the sovereignty of the state of Israel.

There is a blockade on Gaza by EGYPT. If you wish to pass this blockade you must stop for inspection. Inspection take place at a port in EGYPT. You try to run it then you are obviously up to something nefarious. Or at least EGYPT will think so.

On the other hand....F'n JOOOOOOSSS have no right to stop anyone. All they want to do is shoot up some Muzzies.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Regardless of whether the violence here was an intended result of the flotilla, this incident is more bad news for Israel. They're bleeding international support, and it's likely only going to get worse in the near future as they won't be changing their hard-line approach to conflict any time soon. I get the sense things may be coming to a head in the near future.

On a side note, I'm repeatedly struck by the quality of discussion and reporting in Israeli media about Israeli news and politics as compared with that in the American media. It's almost like there's a taboo in the US when it comes to discussion/criticism of Israel. Here's a leftist opinion piece from Haaretz that exemplifies some of the type of discussion so rarely seen here.

Note that this discussion has bubbled to the surface recently in the US media in response to Peter Beinart's essay. Some great discussion regarding the slowly diverging views of younger versus older Jews with regards to Israeli policy, backed by sobering consideration of the options Israel has at hand and what this will mean for their future state.

What's missing is a legitimate Palestinian voice in the discussion. The reasons for this shortfall are both intrinsic (related to poor choices that govern Palestinian policy) and extrinsic (absence of "serious" Palestinian voices, as deemed by US media).

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think the difference between this kind of leftist debate and the kind from the extreme left in North America, is that this is a lot more reasonable. The emphasis is not on depecting Israel as an enemy and illegitimate from the start. It actually focusses on constructive change as oppossed to attack. It also doesn't try to depict terrorists as saints.

I don't think much of if any of the anti-Israeli crowd has learnt to do that yet. Usually we just get irrational attacks or old anti-semitic propaganda with the work Israeli inserted where the word Jew used to be.

You think so? I'm not sure I've ever encountered someone who strongly argued against Israel's right to exist (beyond purely theoretical discussion about what it means to have a "right to exist" and whether displacement of a pre-existing population should in theory affect the legitimacy of any such right).

I would also say that leftists' lack of focus on the wrongdoing of "terrorists" (or "freedom fighters" or whatever term one prefers) might be a direct result of two things: 1) a disproportional amount of contrary criticism - i.e. criticism of Israeli actions/policies - in American media; and 2) Israel's status as an ally. I suspect for many people a wrongful act on Israel's part seems worse than a corresponding act on the part of Hamas (for example) because Israel is "we" whereas Hamas is "they," and it is less palatable when "we" do something wrong and fail to address it, than when "they" do something wrong. The relative power imbalance between "we" and "they" is no doubt another factor in causing many people to focus on Israel's shortcomings rather than those of Hamas or what have you.

I would also say that the link between Israel and the Jewish people is a double-edged sword. Less reasonable defenders of Israel do argue from time to time that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, even when that is not the case. As I'm sure you know, some go so far as to deny even criticism that comes from Jewish sources, dismissing their arguments by calling them "self hating Jews." Of course, to link Israel (the state) and Jews (the people) in this way is dangerous not only because it undermines valuable discussion/criticism about Israeli policies (the first edge of the sword), but also because it can be used to justify anti-semitism (edge two). By that I mean that an unjustifiable dislike of Jews can be supported by a justifiable dislike of Israeli policies and actions. I have no doubt that Israel's declining reputation in the world is a key source of a corresponding rise in anti-semitism.

Anyways, that was a bit of an off-topic meander. I'll leave it there.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Absolutely.

But I think it is a demonstrably false proposition to pretend that a flotilla of 6 ships filled mostly with non-soldiers is a legitimate threat to the sovereignty of the state of Israel.

If you replaced the word "flotilla" with "vehicle" and "Israel" with "Canada" or the "United States", then you have a case of people trying to drive a vehicle through a military blockade in Afghanistan and refusing orders to stand down getting shot down before they can get to their destination.

I am rather curious to know if you would/have criticized Canadian and American soldiers for essentially doing the same thing the Israelis did?

Personally, I think it is a demonstrably false proposition to pretend that the flotilla of ships were manned by innocent little victims. Everyone knew that the Israeli Navy wouldn't let them just waltz in, and everyone knew that a boarding was going to happen if they tried to push through. Whether the response by the Israelis on this one ship was justifiable given the circumstances and information available to all sides at the time of the incident will be a matter of much debate.

And it is a debate that will be utterly dominated by propaganda on both sides. Only a hypocrite would dismiss one side's arguments a mere propaganda because their own side is equally affected.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by HOZ

There is a blockade on Gaza by EGYPT. If you wish to pass this blockade you must stop for inspection. Inspection take place at a port in EGYPT. You try to run it then you are obviously up to something nefarious. Or at least EGYPT will think so.

On the other hand....F'n JOOOOOOSSS have no right to stop anyone. All they want to do is shoot up some Muzzies.

I apologize, but I don't understand how this pertains to Lieberman's assessment of the situation?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

But I think it is a demonstrably false proposition to pretend that a flotilla of 6 ships filled mostly with non-soldiers is a legitimate threat to the sovereignty of the state of Israel.

Are these the only 6 ships that have been stopped since January or is this the only ship since then which has put up a fight?

After all... the Trojan Horse was only one present... can you imagine if there were 6 of them??