Also on your note about Scandanavia (lack of personal and social malaise), do some of those countries not have higher suicide rates then North American countries? If we are looking objectively at personal and social discomforts I assume looking at suicide rates would be one indicator of several to look at of course.
As the previous link noted, the rates of suicide are not statistically different from most western nations, so a correlation between non religious countries and higher suicide rate is rather a big stretch.
I know from my time in Iceland, and travels to Denmark, Sweden (where I have relatives,) those places are very desirable places to live. Iceland is a bit tougher since its relatively remote, cut off from the mainland and we deal with like other northern parts of Scandinavia a near 23hr day of darkness in the winters.
I do know suicide rates go up in the winters, and doctors here are very cognicent of seasonal affective disorder (SAD) and treat it with light therapy; in fact its pretty commonly known to Icelanders and they do a great job educating people on the simple treatment for it.
I know that my experience living in both Canada and Iceland that here you feel more connected with people, people go outside and get together way more often. The amount of vacation time is typically 5 weeks paid vacation with many more long weekends than Canadians enjoy. Icelanders travel a lot, I know many who take weekend trips to Europe probably between 5-10 times a year.
I'm also stunned by how little Television people watch out here, I don't have numbers yet for it but its a very noticeable difference. Plus this country is famous for its avid reading population, there are book stores everywhere, and they are always busy.
I know for everyone happiness factors are different to some degree, but here people work hard, but play harder and the focus always is on making sure work isn't your life but that your family and your health is #1 on the list.
Its amazing how healthy food conscious this nation is, and how involved the government is on taking on processed foods, informing people of all the pitfalls of sugar in children's diets, etc..
Mind you its a small island of 300,000 so its easier to get some things done compared to a large country like Canada, but its been fascinating to get used to this lifestyle and attitude out here, its very refreshing.
Good stuff. I found an article in Barna's website regarding bible sales surrounding the 9/11 period however I didn't choose to post it, mostly because I don't know how credible Barna is. From skimming the article from Barnas it doesn't seem to articulate that religion is on downward trend as it is a recognition that there are 1) multiple and diverse options for Americans and not just a simple assimilation into Christianity and 2) less confidence in organized systems and that doesn't surprise me really.
Or what the James Randi Educational Foundation is?
Maybe you should look him up before you stick your foot into your mouth again.
Fair enough, I didn't look it up and took it for just another conspiracy site. But I have yet to see any "real" evidence of conspiracy over 9-11, sure there were some political mistakes like getting the Saudi families out of the country or maybe even they were warned something like it could happen but to say the US government was behind it is plain reaching and frankly stupid for the many who think that.
Truth is the only thing to blame for 9-11 is religion itself, do you think those hijackers would have killed themselves had they not thought their souls were living on? How many suicide bombers would Al Qaeda have if it wasn't for religion?
Hell, without religion bin Laden himself would be enjoying his good fortune lying on a beach instead of hiding in a mountain.
Sorry, for me there are far too many examples of the pure "evil" that religion has caused for me to ignore it.
As the previous link noted, the rates of suicide are not statistically different from most western nations, so a correlation between non religious countries and higher suicide rate is rather a big stretch.
I do know suicide rates go up in the winters, and doctors here are very cognicent of seasonal affective disorder (SAD) and treat it with light therapy; in fact its pretty commonly known to Icelanders and they do a great job educating people on the simple treatment for it.
Absolutely agree, I remember reading something about the amount of darkness in Norway and the effects it can have on the population. Definitely very real. Like I said though suicide rates are only one factor to look at, not definitive at all.
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Fair enough, I didn't look it up and took it for just another conspiracy site. But I have yet to see any "real" evidence of conspiracy over 9-11, sure there were some political mistakes like getting the Saudi families out of the country or maybe even they were warned something like it could happen but to say the US government was behind it is plain reaching and frankly stupid for the many who think that.
Truth is the only thing to blame for 9-11 is religion itself, do you think those hijackers would have killed themselves had they not thought their souls were living on? How many suicide bombers would Al Qaeda have if it wasn't for religion?
Hell, without religion bin Laden himself would be enjoying his good fortune lying on a beach instead of hiding in a mountain.
Sorry, for me there are far too many examples of the pure "evil" that religion has caused for me to ignore it.
I'm not saying that the conspiracy theories have merit. I'm saying people will believe them regardless of the evidence provided against it.
Our own Lanny was one of them. IIRC, he was also someone that didn't believe God existed.
Also on your note about Scandanavia (lack of personal and social malaise), do some of those countries not have higher suicide rates then North American countries? If we are looking objectively at personal and social discomforts I assume looking at suicide rates would be one indicator of several to look at of course.
An early look at data regarding societies and religiosity and negative societal heath, and the second is a followup which I haven't known about until now so I haven't read yet.
"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies."
Keeping in mind that correlation doesn't equal causation:
Quote:
This study is a first, brief look at an important subject that has been almost entirely neglected by social scientists. The primary intent is to present basic correlations of the elemental data. Some conclusions that can be gleaned from the plots are outlined. This is not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health. It is hoped that these original correlations and results will spark future research and debate on the issue.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of (...) STD infection rates, teen pregnancy (...) in the prosperous democracies."
Wow.
~bug
So basically... if you believe in god, you're more likely to have a lot of fun. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it, athiests!
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So basically... if you believe in god, you're more likely to have a lot of fun. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it, athiests!
From the study:
"Teen gonorrhea infection rates, for instance, are dozens to literally hundreds of times higher in the U.S. than in secular western Europe and Canada, and gonorrhea and syphilis have been nearly exterminated in the highly secular Nordic countries and France."
If that sounds like fun, I would rather be boring ;-)
~bug
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I think T@T would like to be eloquent to put it like Hitchens does on his case against Christianity (and indeed all religion.)
Part 1.
Part 2.
I tend to avoid the big question debate myself, I prefer to deal with individual outcomes of belief like the rights of Gays, the Catholic church, and women's treatment/rights in Islam.
But if I were to get into it, I think Hitchens puts it quite well in the above video, and he does it much better than I could.
__________________ Allskonar fyrir Aumingja!!
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Keeping in mind that correlation doesn't equal causation:
Agreed. While the studies make no claim that America's struggles are solely due to its religiosity, they appear to be sufficient to put rest to the claim that godless societies will degrade into anarchy.
I agree with most of the condemnation of religion and churches but it's not always so black and white. Case in point is the ten commandments which I believe Jesus brought the new golden rule to replace the old commandments.
He also said that the law was made for man, not man for the law.
Jesus had little use for the religion of the day either.
I agree with most of the condemnation of religion and churches but it's not always so black and white. Case in point is the ten commandments which I believe Jesus brought the new golden rule to replace the old commandments.
He also said that the law was made for man, not man for the law.
Jesus had little use for the religion of the day either.
I think altruism is something evolutionary in us, as we see it in parts of the animal kingdom as well. There is an evolutionary benefit to being good to your kin/tribe that benefits you and the group as a whole.
Even now the very newest theories floating around neuroscience show hints of what we could call a calculation on our actions for future rewards. To some this is not pleasant as it gives a suggestion as we learn more that you being nice is a calculation of benefit to you, not just that you like being nice.
Anyhow thats kinda off on a tangent, theres tons of exciting stuff going on these days with neuroscience, and as well in the rather unheard of field of evolutionary psychology.
But the thing with the 10 commandments is its claimed to be directly from God and a great many believe that and hold these commandments in such high praise. I'd have to agree with Maher here on this where he says, if thats the best 10 commandments a supreme being can come up with, then you have to be pretty generous to believe in that God.
But again this goes with the vagueness of most believers, most of my friends that are religious agree with me on most things, they don't believe the 10 commandments are from God, they don't believe in Adam/Eve, many of them are even hesitant to proudly proclaim they think Jesus died and was resurrected.
So this is why I really dislike the discussion at times because I could be talking to one believer who believes the infallibility of the bible and another who thinks its an allegory, a book of tales to teach us morals and lessons about how to live. Both call themselves Christian, yet both are very different believers.
Even in Iceland and the nordic countries, while the vast majority don't believe in God, they call themselves Christians and often quote their faith is the golden rule. So we have Atheists who think they are Christians, don't believe in God, but think of themselves as socially Christian, not religiously so.
Thats why so many polls are flawed, you have to get at specifics in these debates otherwise you are stuck in a perpetual loop of debate; so thats why I think very specific topics are way more interesting like the 10 commandments, biblical accuracy/inaccuracy, etc..
__________________ Allskonar fyrir Aumingja!!
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Socially Christian, that's a good way of putting it. One might say that the whole of western culture is socially Christian, whether we believe in the Christian god or not.
I find that clip there with Hitchens vague and weak, not very convincing. I could easily debate him on everything he just said there. Apparently he's a smart guy but his level of understanding on this issue seems to be lacking to say the least.
Is there something about atheists and being English/British, just seems like a lot of those fellas around. I was a fan of Pat Condell there for a while but after a while he just seemed bitter and negative to me.
And Bill Maher, my goodness, is there a more smug man in the whole world than him?
