Calgary Bylaw will give you a Stubbi

[Clever_Iggy]

I'd like to hear from a smoker who thinks punishment for discarding a cigarette butt on the ground is unfair (or whatever) and is unwilling to carry their own personal ashtray with them?

I've never heard a decent response to justify throwing butts on the ground. If the rationale is because they didn't have an ashtray handy, would they use this Stubbi thing?

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Failing to yield to a pedestrian in a marked crosswalk is $575 + 4 demerits.

Having never done it (and been caught - I kid, I kid), I'm not familiar with the insurance implications. Would having something like this on your driving record jack your insurance up? Would it be a considerable amount?

Taking a $575 fine up the rear end wouldn't be nice, but I wonder if it would be the kind of thing that might cost you a lot more in the long run.

[Resolute 14]

I can't say for sure, but yeah, I would imagine such a fine would put you in a higher risk category in a real hurry. Those four demerits would also put you a quarter of the way toward losing your license too.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I'd like to hear from a smoker who thinks punishment for discarding a cigarette butt on the ground is unfair (or whatever) and is unwilling to carry their own personal ashtray with them?

I've never heard a decent response to justify throwing butts on the ground. If the rationale is because they didn't have an ashtray handy, would they use this Stubbi thing?

There is no excuse. Not unlike speeding it is a choice. Everyone knows the consequences but they make a choice and do it anyways. Now throwing butts doesn't have the short term implications that speeding might have (ie death) but littering isn't good for the environment long term.

The only justification for throwing butts on the ground is if there is absolutely no other place to put it. Take Flames games. There isn't an ashtray anywhere at the Dome. But I think that the Flames don't seem to care. THey just get everyone to litter in the smoking area and then presumably just clean it up after the game. The dome is the only place I can think of where littering butts is totally accepted.

Personally I think the stubbi thing is useless. I can usually find a garbage to throw my butt in (after it is extinguished). Doesnt usually effect me though because the U of C has ashtrays absolutely everywhere.

I think the fine is excessive and won't discourage people any more than a $100 fine would. I certainly don't think it is unfair though. I just don't know why it isn't the same fine for littering anything, not just a butt.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by flip

The only justification for throwing butts on the ground is if there is absolutely no other place to put it. Take Flames games. There isn't an ashtray anywhere at the Dome.

By the smoking area close to 201/202 there is a HUGE ashtray. But because the smokers spread out over a large area it is just easier for them to drop them on the ground as opposed to walking the 20 feet to the ashtray.

I often go out with my smoking buddies between periods and see most of the smokers doing this. Which is why I applaud this update to the by-law; many smokers do not care where their butts land, so we need to give them an incentive to care.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by flip

There is no excuse. Not unlike speeding it is a choice. Everyone knows the consequences but they make a choice and do it anyways. Now throwing butts doesn't have the short term implications that speeding might have (ie death) but littering isn't good for the environment long term.

The only justification for throwing butts on the ground is if there is absolutely no other place to put it. Take Flames games. There isn't an ashtray anywhere at the Dome. But I think that the Flames don't seem to care. THey just get everyone to litter in the smoking area and then presumably just clean it up after the game. The dome is the only place I can think of where littering butts is totally accepted.

Personally I think the stubbi thing is useless. I can usually find a garbage to throw my butt in (after it is extinguished). Doesnt usually effect me though because the U of C has ashtrays absolutely everywhere.

I think the fine is excessive and won't discourage people any more than a $100 fine would. I certainly don't think it is unfair though. I just don't know why it isn't the same fine for littering anything, not just a butt.

The $1000 fine is only for still lit butts I believe, which I think is reasonable considering the implications of throwing burning objects on the ground in a largely dry climate. I think the degree of the fine will be effective at discouraging people if it is known and at least occasionally applied. It's one of those things that probably isn't going to be applied all that often, but if you can get people to realize that throwing a butt on the ground could cost them $1000 they're going to be more likely to walk 20ft to the ashtray or find an alternate spot to dispose of the butts (like the stubbi). With a $100 fine there simply isn't the same element of consequence to push that behavior.

There's really no excuse for not disposing of your butts properly IMO. Whether you carry something with you or find an ashtray there's always an option. Or you could just get in touch with your inner cowboy and enter the flavor country that is Copenhagen.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by valo403

Or you could just get in touch with your inner cowboy and enter the flavor country that is Copenhagen.

Copenhagen it makes me feel so good
Copenhagen the way I know it should
I put a lil chew in my mouth
go spittin and a slobberin around the house
That Copenhagen it makes me feel so good

[flip]

Originally Posted by ken0042

By the smoking area close to 201/202 there is a HUGE ashtray. But because the smokers spread out over a large area it is just easier for them to drop them on the ground as opposed to walking the 20 feet to the ashtray.

I often go out with my smoking buddies between periods and see most of the smokers doing this. Which is why I applaud this update to the by-law; many smokers do not care where their butts land, so we need to give them an incentive to care.

Ive been to over 150 Flames games since the end of the lock out and I usually have a smoke during one or both intermissions and I've never seen this supposed ashtray. The smoking section was only introduced last year. Before that you could smoke anywhere and there were never any ashtrays anywhere around the building.


Dome is private property and they seem to encourage people to litter on the ground (not unlike littering in the building by just throwing junk under your seat). THere is lots of security/cops and they've never ever told any of the 200-500 smokers that are outside each intermission to use this supposed ashtray you speak of.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by flip

THere is lots of security/cops and they've never ever told any of the 200-500 smokers that are outside each intermission to use this supposed ashtray you speak of.

Which is the exact reason why we needed a bylaw- if smokers are not specifically told to not litter their cigarette butts, they will just dump them anywhere they feel like.

[flip]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Which is the exact reason why we needed a bylaw- if smokers are not specifically told to not litter their cigarette butts, they will just dump them anywhere they feel like.

No it isn't.

The Dome does not discourage littering of butts, they don't provide ashtrays and IMO they encourage people to litter their butts.

It is private property. The Dome staff nor the police enforce the litter laws in any way shape or form on dome property. It is like getting a littering ticket for throwing your empty popcorn container under your seat at the dome.

Your premise is so misguided I don't know where to start. Of course if there are no laws against doing something people will just do it. I'm not sure what planet you are from but EVERYTHING in society needs a law or people will just do what they want. Why would cigarette butts be any different? If we didn't have speed limits, speeding tickets and signs that say what the limit is, people would just go as fast as they wanted.

Using the Dome as an example is simply wrong. Littering in the smoking area at the dome is not only allowed but IMO encouraged. Like I said, it is like littering in a theatre or inside the arena, it just doesn't matter.

If they wanted people to stop throwing their butts on the ground they'd put cigarette receptacles like they have in smoking areas at workplaces or bars. But they don't so they are encouraging people to litter.

Public property is a different story. I think the city and businesses should have more places to place butts. I also think when there isn't one available citizens need to try and find alternatives to just flicking it on the street. This is not the case at the dome. The Dome has made zero effort to prevent littering at the dome. And if they don't care, neither do I. By your logic I should get a littering ticket when I leave my empty beer cup under my seat when the game is over.

[Resolute 14]

I've actually been tempted to file a complaint against the Flames over the smoking areas. The bylaw says that areas within a certain distance of all public doorways have to be clear of smokers. The Flames/Saddledome fail in that regard miserably.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I've actually been tempted to file a complaint against the Flames over the smoking areas. The bylaw says that areas within a certain distance of all public doorways have to be clear of smokers. The Flames/Saddledome fail in that regard miserably.

Every business in Calgary fails at that. Most anyway. It is really a self enforced law unless the business owners want to back it up. I actually don't think the Flames are one of them, that fails that is.

When the bylaw first came into effect they enforced the 3m (or is it 5m) area really militantly. Now that there is a smoking area you have nothing to complain about (at least during the intermissions).

There are giant signs proclaiming the area to be a smoking area and it only covers about 1/6th of the entire outside of the dome. You cannot leave through any other entrance but the designated one and smoke.

So unless you are willingly going into the smoking area I don't see what the problem is. Even the smoking doors have a separate door to go out of that leads to a non-smoking area. ANd it is enforced militantly that people only smoke in the smoking area.

As for before the game I know they don't seem to care. I think they do have signs that say you must be 3 or 5m away though.

[Methanolic]

Originally Posted by valo403

Sounds like they're doing precisely that with this 'stubbi' thing.

Yup, Almost 3 years after Herding the smokers onto the sidewalks and removing all the ashtrays.

[Methanolic]

Even though I still think the fines are excessive, the solutions Bizzarre, (Stubbi) and the Evil, Filthy, Disgusting label that Calgary's smokers have been branded with is overblown, What the City/Province is doing will eventually work.

Eventually smokers will be terrified to light up anywhere within public view.


The term "Slippery Slope" comes to mind.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by flip

Public property is a different story. I think the city and businesses should have more places to place butts. I also think when there isn't one available citizens need to try and find alternatives to just flicking it on the street. This is not the case at the dome. The Dome has made zero effort to prevent littering at the dome. And if they don't care, neither do I. By your logic I should get a littering ticket when I leave my empty beer cup under my seat when the game is over.

I don't really agree with you on this.
I think it would be nice for smokers is this were the case, but I don't think it's a matter of there should be more palces to put butts.

Why should the responsibility be on the public at large to accomodate smokers? Why can't more smokers take the responsibility upon themselves and get something like a portable ashtray (that the city is currently handing out), and cary their butts with them until they make it to an appropriate place to dispose of them.

If someone was walking down the street eating a cheeseburger and when they finished up, and the nearest garbage can was a block away would it be appropriate for them to just throw the wrapper on the ground? Of course not, a reasonable person would expect that he hang on to that wrapper until he found a proper garbage can. But for some reason when those same reasonable people finish up their smoke at the front door of their office building (a place where it is already illegal to smoke) they think nothing of throwing their butts on the ground.

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, but the huge number of cigarette butts on the ground shows that there are a lot of peopl that it does apply to.

[Resolute 14]

Exactly. It's your decision to smoke, and it's your responsibility to clean up after yourself. It isn't the city's, and it is not everyone else's.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I don't really agree with you on this.
I think it would be nice for smokers is this were the case, but I don't think it's a matter of there should be more palces to put butts.

Why should the responsibility be on the public at large to accomodate smokers? Why can't more smokers take the responsibility upon themselves and get something like a portable ashtray (that the city is currently handing out), and cary their butts with them until they make it to an appropriate place to dispose of them.

If someone was walking down the street eating a cheeseburger and when they finished up, and the nearest garbage can was a block away would it be appropriate for them to just throw the wrapper on the ground? Of course not, a reasonable person would expect that he hang on to that wrapper until he found a proper garbage can. But for some reason when those same reasonable people finish up their smoke at the front door of their office building (a place where it is already illegal to smoke) they think nothing of throwing their butts on the ground.

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, but the huge number of cigarette butts on the ground shows that there are a lot of peopl that it does apply to.

I don't get your logic. You support having public trash cans but not ashtrays? Makes no sense.

IF there weren't any garbage cans in public places people would complain. Just like how people are complaining there are no public places to dispose of butts.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by flip

I don't get your logic. You support having public trash cans but not ashtrays? Makes no sense.

IF there weren't any garbage cans in public places people would complain. Just like how people are complaining there are no public places to dispose of butts.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.
I wasn't saying that I'm in favour of removing ash trays, what I'm saying is that if smokers want to smoke they'll have to make due with what the public at large, or private busninesses, are willing to provide, and sometimes that means coming up with a solution yourself, such as using one of these stubbis.

There are a lot of places where trash cans are abundant. Does that mean that people should be allowed to throw their trash on the ground if they are somewhere where there are no trash cans? Of course not.
Why then do people make arguments like, "Well if they don't want us thowing our cigarette butts on the ground, why don't they put up more ashtrays?" The point I'm making is that more smokers have to take on that responsibility themselves.

Let's use Stephen ave as an example. There aren't a lot of ashtrays on that street (or at least I assume there aren't becasue I see a lot of butts on the ground, especially right in front of the numerous building doors where people aren't supposed to be smoking anyway, but that's a different argument), so why do smokers feel this is justification for throwing their butts on the ground, instead of finding some alternative means of getting rid of your smokes, like say these new stubbi dealies.
If I was to use the same logic as most smokers, I'd be perfectly justfied if I were to go on a hike, and instead of packing my garbage out of the woods, I just decided to throw it all along the trail, because if they don't want me littering, they should provide more garbage cans. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people who would agree with this logic, even amongst those that think the same logic applies to cigarette butts on Stepephen Ave.

[flip]

I don't think anyone was saying that littering of any kind is ok if there aren't trash cans/ashtrays.

The point I was making is that there are trash cans absolutely everywhere. Ashtrays are hard to find.

Not having ashtrays doesn't excuse littering but putting more out there would decrease the amount of litter.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

That's fair, I agree 100% that more ashtrays would equate to fewer butts on the ground.

But there is also no arguing the fact that smokers are much more prone to throwing their butts on the ground for lack of an ashtray, than most other people are to littering any other sort of garbage for lack of a garbage can.

For some reason the same people that will crumple up that cheeseburger wrapper and hang onto it untill they find a garbage can, think nothing about flicking a cigarette butt on the ground several times a day.