Karzai Thinking to Join Taliban

[RougeUnderoos]

I was actually going to try and figure out where that uniform came from but I didn't even know where to start. How did you know that?

All apologies to any Pakistani veterans out there for that wisecrack about that medallion he's wearing. But it does look like a turkey hanging upside down.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I was actually going to try and figure out where that uniform came from but I didn't even know where to start. How did you know that?

All apologies to any Pakistani veterans out there for that wisecrack about that medallion he's wearing. But it does look like a turkey hanging upside down.

I've seen the uniform before.

Its not clear but that badge does look like a airborne or parachute qualification badge but the photo is really fuzzy.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Oh come on now. This is nonsense. Spend five seconds on wikipedia and you'll know that bin Laden was born in 1957. Does that guy look like he's 22 years old?

But if you do insist... Where is that uniform from? He must have been a hell of a soldier to have all those decorations and the vaunted "Upside Down Turkey Award" at such a tender age.

My guess is he got 'em fighting in the Six Day War, when he was 10.

I shouldn't be so snarky, but I mean come on, you don't exactly have to be Mike Hammer to figure this out.

Does that guy look 22? Yeah why not? Those dudes are hairy....

Whether that particular photo is Osama Bin Laden or not, does not change my view about how the U.S. has had their hand in manipulating different groups in the middle east for decades. That is Brezinski, and the U.S. has used and cooperated with guys like Osama Bin Laden to their benefit in the past.
The plan for the middle east was laid out by Brezinski years ago, and he even descirbed it in his book. He has shaped U.S. foreign policy into what it has been for the last 30 years or so.....

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You are aware that that all of that was done because the groups you speak of were fighting an invasion by communist Russia right? Cold War? Heard of it?

Yeah thanks captain obvious......

[Azure]

You gonna ignore my post or what?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Does that guy look 22? Yeah why not? Those dudes are hairy....

Whether that particular photo is Osama Bin Laden or not, does not change my view about how the U.S. has had their hand in manipulating different groups in the middle east for decades. That is Brezinski, and the U.S. has used and cooperated with guys like Osama Bin Laden to their benefit in the past.
The plan for the middle east was laid out by Brezinski years ago, and he even descirbed it in his book. He has shaped U.S. foreign policy into what it has been for the last 30 years or so.....

Again read up on operation Cyclone beyond Wiki. The American's never denied that they worked with Afghan Mujahadeen, they admit it, they are proud of it. However they have repeatedly gone on the record stating that they did not work with the foreign Mujahadeen.

Osama Bin Laden even stated in his interview with Peter Bergen (read the book) that they didn't need American money, or training or American help. The charities that they established in Pakistan raised a ton of money in Middle Eastern States and also had a heavy recruiting precence throughout the middle east.

Bin Laden also stated very clearly that they didn't want the American's in Afghanistan helping to fight the Russian's in any way. They loathed the precence of any American influence, they didn't work with the Afghan Mujahadeen at the time because they felt they were tainted. The Afghan Mujahadeen at the time didn't have a lot of respect for the foreign fighters either (read Eric Margolis book war at the top of the world).

Pakistan's ISI had its hands dirty with the foreign fighters but they had their own mandates to follow and as witnessed it eventually caught up to them. But at the time the ISI fought very hard to limit American involvement through Pakistan.

I see your stating that the picture is now not definately Osama Bin Laden but now is he might or might not be.

Unless Bin Laden had a hideous growth spurt in his early 20's thats not him. The facial features don't look the same, the nose and cheekbones are different, he's wearing a Pakistani Army Uniform with a jump badge. The only thing thats similar is he has a beard. But the funny thing about the Pakistani army is that they're fairly loose about facial hair.

And what a surprise, a senior foreign policy advisor having his hands all over middle eastern policy. Shocking. And releasing a position after the bombing of the world trade center that they needed to gain control in a region that was well known as a center of terrorist training is completely gasp worthy.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah thanks captain obvious......

I'm just wondering what any of what you posted has to do with current events in the reason.

I don't see the connection.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I'm just wondering what any of what you posted has to do with current events in the reason.

I don't see the connection.

Well you see, if Zbigniew Brzezinski laid out this plan to dominate the middle east so many years ago....as to keep the Russians from putting their communist foot-hold in the area where the U.S. gets most of its oil........
Doesn't that bring into question the integrity of the events that have led us up to this point? .......including their relationship to all these extremist groups, Osama Bin Laden, Iraq, 9/11 etc.?

I don't think the current situation has anything to do with the "war on terror" or bringing liberation to these people.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I see your stating that the picture is now not definately Osama Bin Laden but now is he might or might not be.

Well I personally think it is Osama Bin Laden, but if you insist that is not confirmed....that is fine.
Like I said I'm not going on a crusade to find the validity of a photo I just intended to use as an example. It doesn't change my belief that Bin Laden has worked closely with Americans in the past, and most likely still does.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Well I personally think it is Osama Bin Laden, but if you insist that is not confirmed....that is fine.
Like I said I'm not going on a crusade to find the validity of a photo I just intended to use as an example. It doesn't change my belief that Bin Laden has worked closely with Americans in the past, and most likely still does.

Thats great. Personally I think its a clone of Osama built by the U.S. government who is only about 5 foot 11. We shall call him mini Osama.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Well you see, if Zbigniew Brzezinski laid out this plan to dominate the middle east so many years ago....as to keep the Russians from putting their communist foot-hold in the area where the U.S. gets most of its oil........
Doesn't that bring into question the integrity of the events that have led us up to this point? .......including their relationship to all these extremist groups, Osama Bin Laden, Iraq, 9/11 etc.?

I don't think the current situation has anything to do with the "war on terror" or bringing liberation to these people.

Well we'll have to disagree then. I have seen no compelling evidence and nothing prosecution worthy that links the U.S. government to cause or be involved in 9/11

Iraq was stupidity linked to a somewhat dumb president who was driven to finish his fathers work.

9/11 was bought down by a fairly innovative plan by Al Queda assisted by some incredible boughts of dumbness by the U.S. intelligence services.

As for creating a foreign policy to keep the Russians out of vital energy interests by the U.S. government. Thats nothing new or unusual.

But I don't see some vast evil conspiracy, where the U.S. moved events along.

Sorry.

At the end of the day, there is never enough competent people in government with enough discretion to pull that off.

The American government couldn't even pull off the invasion of Cuba without shooting itself in the foot, being unable to keep it a secret and showing the resolve to see it through the end.

I doubt that a secret plot to destroy the world trade center so that they can enact foreign policy could ever be done with government involvement.

Now if the Mob, the Illuminati, the Lizard people and the Free Masons got together, then you'd see some evil plans hatched.

[mikey_the_redneck]

..........Mini-me looks more like a Nazi in that picture captain....

I found an article that talks about Osama Bin Ladens activities with the CIA. You won't like the source.....but I care not.

http://www.infowars.com/zadari-osama...united-states/

From the article....
"Before “everything changed” on September 11, 2001, the corporate media published truthful stories about Osama bin Laden and his relationship with the CIA. “As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar — the MAK — which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war,” Michael Moran wrote for MSNBC on August 24, 1998. “What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.”

This is saying something completely opposite of what you posted from your book....it goes on to say.....

"The CIA’s intimate relationship with Osama bin Laden came to light during a the trial of Mohamed Rashed Daoud al-’Owhali and Khalfan Khamis Mohamed for the 1998 bombings of two American Embassies in Africa. Giles Foden wrote about the “deep and insidious connection” between Osama bin Laden and the CIA on September 13, 2001, for the Guardian.

“FBI investigators examining the embassy bombing sites in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam discovered that evidence led to military explosives from the US Army, and that these explosives had been delivered three years earlier to Afghan Arabs, the infamous international volunteer brigades involved side by side with bin Laden during the Afghan war against the Red Army,” Alexandra Richard wrote for Le Figaro on October 11, 2001."

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Well we'll have to disagree then. I have seen no compelling evidence and nothing prosecution worthy that links the U.S. government to cause or be involved in 9/11

Iraq was stupidity linked to a somewhat dumb president who was driven to finish his fathers work.

9/11 was bought down by a fairly innovative plan by Al Queda assisted by some incredible boughts of dumbness by the U.S. intelligence services.

As for creating a foreign policy to keep the Russians out of vital energy interests by the U.S. government. Thats nothing new or unusual.

But I don't see some vast evil conspiracy, where the U.S. moved events along.

Sorry.

At the end of the day, there is never enough competent people in government with enough discretion to pull that off.

The American government couldn't even pull off the invasion of Cuba without shooting itself in the foot, being unable to keep it a secret and showing the resolve to see it through the end.

I doubt that a secret plot to destroy the world trade center so that they can enact foreign policy could ever be done with government involvement.

Now if the Mob, the Illuminati, the Lizard people and the Free Masons got together, then you'd see some evil plans hatched.

Nice jabs at the end there......not really necessary though.

If 9/11 didn't happen crunch.....Iraq/Afghanistan wouldn't have happened.

I don't believe the U.S. government directly performed the 9/11 attacks, but I think they knew of it, and even facilitated it.....as a means to sell the idea of war to Americans. Cause problem.............offer solution that serves own interests.....

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

..........Mini-me looks more like a Nazi in that picture captain....

I found an article that talks about Osama Bin Ladens activities with the CIA. You won't like the source.....but I care not.

http://www.infowars.com/zadari-osama...united-states/

Your right, infowars is complete crap. Sorry but it is.

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

From the article....
"Before “everything changed” on September 11, 2001, the corporate media published truthful stories about Osama bin Laden and his relationship with the CIA. “As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar — the MAK — which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war,” Michael Moran wrote for MSNBC on August 24, 1998. “What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.”

Again, when dealing with the foreign mujahadeen, the ISI followed its own policy. they went as far as limiting involvement of the CIA on the Pakistani side of the Afghan Russian conflict.

And Michael Moran's line is speculation as soon as he sats that the CIA bio didn't have information about the relationship between MAK and ISI. He's basically saying The information isn't there. I believe they're hiding it in classified documents so even though I can't see it, I believe its a fact.



This is saying something completely opposite of what you posted from your book....it goes on to say.....

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

"The CIA’s intimate relationship with Osama bin Laden came to light during a the trial of Mohamed Rashed Daoud al-’Owhali and Khalfan Khamis Mohamed for the 1998 bombings of two American Embassies in Africa. Giles Foden wrote about the “deep and insidious connection” between Osama bin Laden and the CIA on September 13, 2001, for the Guardian.

“FBI investigators examining the embassy bombing sites in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam discovered that evidence led to military explosives from the US Army, and that these explosives had been delivered three years earlier to Afghan Arabs, the infamous international volunteer brigades involved side by side with bin Laden during the Afghan war against the Red Army,” Alexandra Richard wrote for Le Figaro on October 11, 2001."

The CIA supplied weapons and funding to the Afghan local Mujahadeen. I've said that a bunch of times here. Wow surprise that it ended up in the hands of the foreign fighters. Thats not a suprise. That doesn't directly link the CIA to the foreign fighters, their charity movements or to Osama Bin Laden, who interestingly enough the CIA didn't even have a file on until 1996 under the Clinton administration.

You're reaching.

Read Bergen and Margolis book. Those two have both been involved intimatly with the members of Al Queda including Peter Bergen having at least two confirmed interviews with Bin Laden, who himself has said several times that he didn't receive funding or training from the Americans at all. He didn't need them, he had plenty of support and money and recruits from the Arab World. If Osama Bin Laden had indeed been trained by the CIA and supplied and supported by the CIA he would have been bragging about how he had fooled the Great Crusader.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The American government couldn't even pull off the invasion of Cuba without shooting itself in the foot, being unable to keep it a secret and showing the resolve to see it through the end.

Interesting you bring that up........

There was a proposal made to President Kennedy by his defense people called Operation Northwoods.......the plan was to pull a false flag terror attack on U.S. soil to gain public support for the invasion of Cuba.

Kennedy refused.....

But wait........a government would never want to hurt its' own people to serve its own agenda would they??

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Nice jabs at the end there......not really necessary though.

If 9/11 didn't happen crunch.....Iraq/Afghanistan wouldn't have happened.

Your right, it wouldn't have happened and America wouldn't have destroyed their economy, destroyed their credibility in the world and pretty much ended their status as a great nation.

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I don't believe the U.S. government directly performed the 9/11 attacks, but I think they knew of it, and even facilitated it.....as a means to sell the idea of war to Americans. Cause problem.............offer solution that serves own interests.....

I believe U.S. intelligence had warnings and tid bits of intelligence and failed to put it together. I don't believe the Yanks facilitated it. I believe they failed to see the attack as a serious threat. But thats incompentance not malice.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Your right, infowars is complete crap. Sorry but it is.

Why is that?
Even though he is over the top sometimes, and quite right wing, I think some of the stuff on his site is closer to the truth than what you will typically find on the evening news with CNN/Fox.
They also reference many mainstream articles on the site from places like the New York Times, Washington Post etc.....

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Well you see, if Zbigniew Brzezinski laid out this plan to dominate the middle east so many years ago....as to keep the Russians from putting their communist foot-hold in the area where the U.S. gets most of its oil........
Doesn't that bring into question the integrity of the events that have led us up to this point? .......including their relationship to all these extremist groups, Osama Bin Laden, Iraq, 9/11 etc.?

I don't think the current situation has anything to do with the "war on terror" or bringing liberation to these people.

No, it doesn't. 4 administrations have come and gone since then. The people involved are mostly gone, many are dead.

To assume that responses to Cold War actions are still valid in the eyes of the US government is pretty naive IMO.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I believe U.S. intelligence had warnings and tid bits of intelligence and failed to put it together. I don't believe the Yanks facilitated it. I believe they failed to see the attack as a serious threat. But thats incompentance not malice.

Well we will agree to disagree...

You say the U.S. government is simply stupid and incompetent. Well I think that is ridiculous. George Bush and the boys certainly are not stupid.....

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

No, it doesn't. 4 administrations have come and gone since then. The people involved are mostly gone, many are dead.

To assume that responses to Cold War actions are still valid in the eyes of the US government is pretty naive IMO.

Brezinski has been working in government forever. He advises Obama. He is part of many think tanks that shape U.S. foreign policy........like I mentioned with the Trilateral Commisssion and the CFR. There is alot of continuity in U.S. government behind the scenes.