Where do these people live?!

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

The problem is that there is a double standard, do you have a problem with phrases like "black power"? I personally don't, as long as there isn't any hatred behind it, much like someone being proud of being as white as blank paper in a snowstorm (I am a redhead, I can't help it). If there is no hatred behind their actions and they don't discriminate against other people, why not be proud of your background?

Obviously a guy with a swastika tattoo has a much different opinion than mine because that conveys a belief of superiority which is closely related to hatred.

The public service guy is likely is just a whiner who continually feels as though he is a victim.

any sane person has a problem with the notion of 'black power', surely, for the same reasons she has a problem with the notion of 'white power'. Perhaps 'black pride' is somewhat less objectionable, but I'd say it's only so in the context of African-Americans or others who:

a) don't know their exact ethnic origin
b) have been oppressed for very long

The problem with things like 'white pride' is not only that it is often used as barely anything other than hate speech, and may even subtly incite violence, but that it's also just a baffling thing to be proud of. Your skin colour, I mean. See, I have zero issue with Italian pride, Norse pride, Greek pride, English pride, etc. etc. If people want to celebrate the culture of their ancestors, go ahead.

the thing with 'white pride' is that it's as ridiculous and stupid as my having a 'brown pride' rally outside City Hall with people ranging from everywhere from Southern Europe to India. It has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with 'waahh, I think my skin is prettier than yours!'

personally, I agree with Carlin on the whole pride thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgmj...eature=related

but I guess I have to accept that most people don't think like me.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Why should citizenship be a birthright that you keep with you for all eternity? If you don't contribute to a nation and you only keep the passport as a get out of jail free card (literally in some peoples cases), I have a problem with that, the biggest reason being that it costs the taxpayers money. It isn't a race issue because I think that Brenda Martin falls into the same boat as those who were escaping from Lebanon only to return as soon as fighting ceased.

Let me make sure you understood me: I'm talking about my Swiss passport. My mom is Swiss, and hence I am Swiss by birth. I'm saying that I have no 'need' for a Canadian passport because it offers me zero, ZERO benefits that the Swiss one doesn't. So the usual 'Canadian of Convenience' schtick doesn't work with me, because I'm only in Canada because

a) my parents decided they liked it better than the other place they could've settled in
b) now that I am an adult, quite simply because I like Canada the most of any place I've lived, identify with it the most, and feel I can be a productive member of this society, where I would feel alien in Zurich or Berne, and certainly alien in Arab countries where I can barely formulate a sentence in the language

I'm not here because of any material benefit Canada offers me, I'm here because I want to be. All benefits Canada offers that other parts of the world don't are intangible and immaterial. How many white Canadians cant wait to retire somewhere hot and sunny? You know where I'd like to retire? A cabin in a tiny town somewhere, on a river or on the ocean. In Canada. Yet somehow, I'm the citizen of convenience.

as for why I keep my Swiss passport, I have contemplated giving it up, but I don't see why I necessarily should. I don't feel I'm exploiting it by using up all its benefits and giving nothing back in return. If I want to go to Europe and use my Swiss passport to get around perhaps more easily, I will be pumping plenty of cash into the local economies. And that is the ONLY use for a Swiss passport, aside from simply having one, that I have. I fail to foresee any scenario that would entail my using my Swiss passport as a get out of jail free card. Furthermore, as traitorous as many might deem it, I do plan on doing my year's service in the Swiss military, even though I don't have to because I live abroad. I feel I'm entirely justified in keeping my Swiss passport, as nothing more than a birth right. It's just not the same as someone immigrating to Canada, getting the citizenship, then leaving.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

The public service guy is likely is just a whiner who continually feels as though he is a victim.

You don't know that, and can't make that judgment.

But if he said he was black and being mistreated by his white boss there would be reporters banging on his door, a HRC investigation and so forth. You could argue double standard by interpretation.

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Assimilation > Multiculturalism?

What the hell is wrong with identifying with the culture you left behind? My Greek co-workers revel in their Greek heritage, their children go to Greek school to learn the Greek language, go to the Greek Orthodox church and dance at the Greek festival. Maybe we should stand outside the Greek festival and tell them to go back where they came from due to the evil act of "identifying with the culture they left behind".

I think you can keep your existing culture and still adopt Canadian ways.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But if he said he was black and being mistreated by his white boss there would be reporters banging on his door, a HRC investigation and so forth. You could argue double standard by interpretation.

A friend of mine is an HRC investigator. He can tell you that there are a ton visible minorities claiming whites are mistreating them due to racism... most of them he just throws in the shredder. None of these ever make the papers. Most of them are things like "my boss makes ME do the scrub work, while the other white co-workers get the plum assignments that will lead to career advancement". My friend checks into it and finds that the complainant shows up to work late, does a half-assed job all day and leaves early. Of course the co-workers who do their job well are going to get the better assignments.

And yes, he does get a fair share of "they screened my application out of competition X because I'm white" to deal with as well.

[FanningTheFlames]

Hey, I wasn't the one talking about how culturally vapid Canadians are, PyramidofMars, you were. And that's what bothered me the most. No fricking crap we don't have Roman ampitheatres in Canada. You must be some kind of history major to have figured that out.

I don't mind immigrants who make this country better. What I do mind are those who come with selfish intentions (I.e. with the plan to send their money back to the "homeland") or bringing their old world animosities with them.

For the record, I agree with you about racial supremacism. It's a form of extreme nationalism that should be shunned in a multi-cultural society. But I think most of those comments you read were from pretty normal people.

In a well-known study, immigrant families take 3 to 4 generations to integrate. The people who arrive don't want to fully integrate because that would basically be like giving up a piece of their soul. Still, they adapt as best they can and their children grow up in the new culture, go to school, get jobs, and occasionally visit their by now distant relatives in the homeland. By the third generation, the children consider themselves wholly as members of the society to which they belong.

The first-generation immigrants can sometimes be pretty vocal about how much better their first country was, I understand, but don't start a thread purportedly about white-supremacists and then turn around and say Canadians have nothing to brag about. It just looks bad.

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Aqaba and Petra are awesome to visit, but I wouldn't live in (or near) either of those places. Or really anywhere in Jordan except Amman. It's small enough a country that you can go anywhere and it wouldn't take you too long, anyway.

I think what's cool about a lot of the countries I mentioned is the youth culture. I think that even in universities in Canada there is a sort of disengaged, very cynical air to things, and even smart people tend to just gather at pubs and engage in illogical ramblings about this or that, even when they are actually discussing something interesting. I think there is also a sort of feeling among a lot of young white Canadians that Canada is irrelevant and not very interesting, which sorts of infects their whole worldview, attitude, and life (I guess they feel that they, as a result, are not particularly relevant or interesting). A sort of comfortable, 'well, that's Canada, eh' attitude that I find very few Arab youth- whether in Arabia or not- have. In major Arab cities one really can find those cafes of lore, a sort of gathering place of culture and intellect, and really driven by passion. In Canada, a lot of the places that purport to be such places are filled with vacant, disengaged hipsters. And don't get me started on how the average discussion at a Canadian pub compares to discussions I overheard at cafes and just on the street in Amman.

A lot of it is also just the fact that Arabia has more history and culture than Canada. Sorry, that's a fact. I'd rather live here and be a Canadian than be a Jordanian in Amman, but I would never say that Calgary is a more interesting city than Amman. Does downtown Calgary have a Roman amphitheatre? There just isn't a lot of vibrancy in most of Canada, and while I do appreciate our sleepy, somewhat self-deprecating sensibility, I do sometimes feel like going to the burbs and screaming at people to get out of their houses and take to the streets! I've actually thought about this a lot, I do really, really dig Canadian film, art, etc. The problem is that barely a goddamn soul is engaged in Canadian culture. The minority of culturally engaged, vibrant Canadians make awesome art and awesome films and write awesome books. But when you seek out that circle, you realize just how absolutely, miserably tiny that circle is. Sociopolitically, we are the best country in the world. Quality of life is excellent. But to seek out the amazing sensation that you are in the middle of something bigger than yourself, one is often forced to look outside North America. Maybe if I lived in Toronto or New York I would think differently, I don't know.

Winning hockey gold was one of the few moments I felt I was in the middle of something bigger than myself in Canada, in my whole life.

This was my favourite post of the thread. I'm disappointed that it kind of got ignored as the thread devolved into a bitter Internet pissing match. Yeah it is kind of harsh (Ok, it is harsh). But a lot of it rings true...

I also loved the Olympic feeling. A group of friends of mine hopped in a car with me and drove overnight from Calgary to Vancouver and it was probably the greatest experience of our lives.

GenY has the feeling that they can't change anything. The institutions that form society are already well established. There is an underlying feeling that things could be better or improved, but very little voice is given to solutions when others are quick to cry out that it isn't realistic.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I think what's cool about a lot of the countries I mentioned is the youth culture. I think that even in universities in Canada there is a sort of disengaged, very cynical air to things, and even smart people tend to just gather at pubs and engage in illogical ramblings about this or that, even when they are actually discussing something interesting. I think there is also a sort of feeling among a lot of young white Canadians that Canada is irrelevant and not very interesting, which sorts of infects their whole worldview, attitude, and life (I guess they feel that they, as a result, are not particularly relevant or interesting). A sort of comfortable, 'well, that's Canada, eh' attitude that I find very few Arab youth- whether in Arabia or not- have. In major Arab cities one really can find those cafes of lore, a sort of gathering place of culture and intellect, and really driven by passion. In Canada, a lot of the places that purport to be such places are filled with vacant, disengaged hipsters. And don't get me started on how the average discussion at a Canadian pub compares to discussions I overheard at cafes and just on the street in Amman.

A lot of it is also just the fact that Arabia has more history and culture than Canada. Sorry, that's a fact. I'd rather live here and be a Canadian than be a Jordanian in Amman, but I would never say that Calgary is a more interesting city than Amman. Does downtown Calgary have a Roman amphitheatre? There just isn't a lot of vibrancy in most of Canada, and while I do appreciate our sleepy, somewhat self-deprecating sensibility, I do sometimes feel like going to the burbs and screaming at people to get out of their houses and take to the streets!

Yeah, but does downtown Amman have a skating rink in front of City Hall?

And I hopefully won't get you started on "average discussions" you'll find in Calgary compared to what you find in Amman, but I will say that I "laughed out loud" when I read that sentence.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by FanningTheFlames

Hey, I wasn't the one talking about how culturally vapid Canadians are, PyramidofMars, you were. And that's what bothered me the most. No fricking crap we don't have Roman ampitheatres in Canada. You must be some kind of history major to have figured that out.

heh, all I was doing was guessing at what made Q want to return to live in the middle east. It's the same reason a lot of people want to go to Europe. In case you didn't notice I said I'd rather be a Canadian than anything else... multiple times. It's not like I don't have the choice. And I don't need any material benefits Canada offers me. I like the intangible benefits it gives me. I like Canadians and I like being a Canadian.

My complaint about the lack of engagement in the culture here is one made by pretty much everyone who IS engaged in it. There's an awesome duo from Calgary called Dave & Jenn, they sort of do quasi-paintings that really play with the form and their whole schtick is kind of a contemporary young Canadian take on Tom Thomson and the Group of Seven. Their stuff is really cool, and the production of that sort of stuff is what I basically live on with regard to culture, here. Calgary has an urban core that is desperately trying to breed a real culture, but the problem is that my generation, who should be at the core of this, are so completely disengaged and completely apathetic that they genuinely treat even art parties as just an excuse to get drunk. The vapidity and emptiness of my generation is appalling. I've had loads of wonderful discussions with older fellow Canadians about local art, film, and literature. I work at an independent theater in Calgary and people my age only come to see 'cool' American and European stuff. Very few people below 30 give a damn about Canada anymore. You should be scared by that. I am scared by that. Montreal and Toronto are practically carrying this country on their shoulders, culturally speaking. And the situation there is hardly ideal. Note hte difference between Toronto and New York in terms of cultural output.

It's that sort of extreme apathy that scares me. Along with the fact that a major political renaissance in Alberta constitutes a shift slightly further to the right, and that at the federal level we have... Well, I'll let you think about that one.

Originally Posted by FanningTheFlames

don't start a thread purportedly about white-supremacists and then turn around and say Canadians have nothing to brag about. It just looks bad.

I was not saying that. Don't take what I said out of context. It all started with my saying that I could have a good life elsewhere, but chose to live in Canada because I liked it the most. Having mentioned Amman in that post, Q replied by talking about it. I replied to him by discussing culture, since he mentioned culture. I'm not sure what part of 'I WANT TO LIVE IN CALGARY' you didn't get. There's loads of opportunities for a well-educated young person fluent in English there. I choose to remain here because I love Canada.

And like every Canadian, I have a right to discuss the pros and cons of Canadian culture. And particularly my generation's complete disengagement with it and general apathy.

Anyway, Flames0910 seems to have understood what I meant.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Canada did have a strong culture that has been slowly watered down by immigration.

What I mean by that is we have changed what we do here in order to make immigrants feel more comfortable. We also have become way too politically correct. Why?................I will never know.

Here are a few small examples of things that have changed since I was a kid..I'm sure some of you could find a few more examples.

-my old elementary school no longer has halloween/christmas day because the immigrant kids don't take part.............so it was cancelled.
-Christmas is no longer christmas......but is now the "holiday season", as not to offend any immigrants by celebrating.
-we used to sing the anthem at school every morning......not anymore.

Now I know that there aren't groups of immigrants publicly rallying to cancel christmas etc..........so I'm not sure who has caused this change.
Lobby groups? Our own government?

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, but does downtown Amman have a skating rink in front of City Hall?

And I hopefully won't get you started on "average discussions" you'll find in Calgary compared to what you find in Amman, but I will say that I "laughed out loud" when I read that sentence.

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding of the intent of that post.

Quite simply: I would rather live in Calgary than Amman.

Got that? Pretty simple. I have the choice. I'm here cause I dig it here, got that?

All I was trying to get across is that Amman is a much more vibrant and exciting place, especially for a young person, than Calgary.

What a lot of people seem to be getting from that is that I'm saying it is a better place. I am not saying it is a better place.

I'm talking specifically about my disengaged, apathetic, lazy, culturally-cannibalistic, generation. Which seems to largely be going out of its way not to make Calgary or Alberta a more vibrant place to be.

That apathy is just not found among youth over there. THAT is what I was trying to get across.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Canada did have a strong culture that has been slowly watered down by immigration.

What I mean by that is we have changed what we do here in order to make immigrants feel more comfortable. We also have become way too politically correct. Why?................I will never know.

Here are a few small examples of things that have changed since I was a kid..I'm sure some of you could find a few more examples.

-my old elementary school no longer has halloween/christmas day because the immigrant kids don't take part.............so it was cancelled.
-Christmas is no longer christmas......but is now the "holiday season", as not to offend any immigrants by celebrating.
-we used to sing the anthem at school every morning......not anymore.

Now I know that there aren't groups of immigrants publicly rallying to cancel christmas etc..........so I'm not sure who has caused this change.
Lobby groups? Our own government?

It is the fault of ridiculous government policies and this bullcrap that is the 'cultural mosaic'. I find it absurdly offensive that we are supposed to celebrate the division of cultures as opposed to being one and the same, bringing all the traditions together as one.

The anthem at school thing I really don't get. But I also really resent the implicit suggestion that immigrants or non-whites don't know or love the anthem. Did you look at GM place during the Olympic run? Seen a Toronto FC game on TV? Celebrations on the streets when we won? That's right, not exactly void of non-white folk, was it?

For the record, almost every immigrant I have spoken to on the subject of political correctness thinks the stuff re: Christmas and what not is absolutely stupid. I remember vividly being in a store (forgot which), and this East Indian couple, very clearly recent immigrants, were asking around for 'Christmas decorations'.

The white people helping them almost flippantly stated that 'we here in Canada appreciate all different cultures and holidays, so we call them holiday decorations'.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding of the intent of that post.

Quite simply: I would rather live in Calgary than Amman.

Got that? Pretty simple. I have the choice. I'm here cause I dig it here, got that?

All I was trying to get across is that Amman is a much more vibrant and exciting place, especially for a young person, than Calgary.

What a lot of people seem to be getting from that is that I'm saying it is a better place. I am not saying it is a better place.

I'm talking specifically about my disengaged, apathetic, lazy, culturally-cannibalistic, generation. Which seems to largely be going out of its way not to make Calgary or Alberta a more vibrant place to be.

That apathy is just not found among youth over there. THAT is what I was trying to get across.

So what you are saying is you like Calgary, just not the vanilla Calgarians that live there.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

My only beef is with immigrants who go to North America to become richer.. while already being rich in their own country. It just doesn't make much logical sense to me.

Immigrants who NEED to relocate are more than welcome in my opinion i.e. People from disaster zones or refugees from war torn countries.

Am I dead wrong??? I'm open to having anyone here change my opinion..

Eh?

We should support rich people coming to North America. It helps build our economy.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by Azure

Eh?

We should support rich people coming to North America. It helps build our economy.

Our government deliberately tries to bring in the most uneducated and poorest first. It's a nice idea, but they're the ones that do, to some extent, pose a potential risk. It's because they're wanted to fill jobs nobody else will do. Or at least that's the only reason I can think of.

I know that fairly well-off, educated people have to fulfill various pretty strong criteria before being considered, certainly the case for a Morocccan acquaintance of mine and his family, while we will seemingly let any random Afghani from a village somewhere in, no hassle.

[Shnabdabber]

[FlamingStuffedTiger]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I'm talking specifically about my disengaged, apathetic, lazy, culturally-cannibalistic, generation. Which seems to largely be going out of its way not to make Calgary or Alberta a more vibrant place to be.

That apathy is just not found among youth over there. THAT is what I was trying to get across.

I take this to be more of a criticism that is specific to the arts and culture scene in Calgary than one of Canada or Canadian culture per se. We have to remember that Calgary is a growing city, one that is on the verge of a cultural transformation. But, I wouldn't be so quick to lay the blame solely on a "disengaged, apathetic, lazy, culturally-cannibalistic, generation." Calgary also has issues of urban sprawl and land use that might contribute to the appearance of an apathetic public. I feel that having the appropriate infrastructure to support the arts is just as important as having people who are actively engaged.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

Ha! I just saw this and it reminded me of that "waterpark song" in a recent South Park episode, which was what immediately came to mind as I was looking though some of those comments from the article... Anyone have a link?

[Flames0910]

My complaint about the lack of engagement in the culture here is one made by pretty much everyone who IS engaged in it. There's an awesome duo from Calgary called Dave & Jenn, they sort of do quasi-paintings that really play with the form and their whole schtick is kind of a contemporary young Canadian take on Tom Thomson and the Group of Seven. Their stuff is really cool, and the production of that sort of stuff is what I basically live on with regard to culture, here. Calgary has an urban core that is desperately trying to breed a real culture, but the problem is that my generation, who should be at the core of this, are so completely disengaged and completely apathetic that they genuinely treat even art parties as just an excuse to get drunk. The vapidity and emptiness of my generation is appalling. I've had loads of wonderful discussions with older fellow Canadians about local art, film, and literature. I work at an independent theater in Calgary and people my age only come to see 'cool' American and European stuff. Very few people below 30 give a damn about Canada anymore. You should be scared by that. I am scared by that. Montreal and Toronto are practically carrying this country on their shoulders, culturally speaking. And the situation there is hardly ideal. Note hte difference between Toronto and New York in terms of cultural output.

I just quoted one segment, but really I'm kinda responding to the entire direction this thread has taken

We're agreed on apathetic youth. For example, I'm a UofC student. I don't stay up all night discussing philosophy, culture, music and the arts. I go to pubs and drink with my friends, and, when I was in residence we went to The Den on Thuursday nights. Whether this is longing for a past that never existed is certainly up for debate. Nevertheless, it is a recognized aspect of Generation Y that we are disengaged and apathetic - mainly because we feel that we can't realistically make a difference in the institutions that were founded by the generations before us. We might have a few good ideas, but we have learned to keep them to ourselves for the most part, lest they be trampled on.

Why do you think Gen Y is so focused on work-life balance? If you're working for an institution instead of it working for you then work gets a lot less meaningful. And there is little hope of that changing until the boomers move on. We might see youth emerging from their defensive positions as the boomers relinquish their grasp over societal institutions.

The comments about other countries, however, are particularly interesting to me. I think that we've grown comfortable. Canadians have one of the best standards of living in the world. We don't have the same need or desire for change as those living in developing countries. It is kind of unfair to compare the political discussion found on the streets of Amman to that of Calgary for this reason.

[PyramidsofMars]

nm

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding of the intent of that post.

Quite simply: I would rather live in Calgary than Amman.

Got that? Pretty simple. I have the choice. I'm here cause I dig it here, got that?

All I was trying to get across is that Amman is a much more vibrant and exciting place, especially for a young person, than Calgary.

What a lot of people seem to be getting from that is that I'm saying it is a better place. I am not saying it is a better place.

I'm talking specifically about my disengaged, apathetic, lazy, culturally-cannibalistic, generation. Which seems to largely be going out of its way not to make Calgary or Alberta a more vibrant place to be.

That apathy is just not found among youth over there. THAT is what I was trying to get across.

I have no doubt it's a more vibrant and exciting place. Two million people are crammed in there and it's in the middle of the craziest place on earth.

As for "apathetic, disengaged, lazy, culturally-cannibalistic (whatever the hell that means)" -- that's a fancy way of saying "stupid" as far as I'm concerned. If someone describes me that way, they are calling me a moron.

Unless you meant it as a compliment.