Poster of naked Virgin Mary sparks unholy row

[octothorp]

But there's nowhere in the bible that explicitly states that Mary and God did not engage in some form of copulation. Matthew simply references Isaiah, who, in the original hebrew version, had simply said 'young woman', not virgin. And in Luke, Mary says that she is a virgin, but that conversation happened before the conception, so it doesn't state that she's still a virgin post conception. And Paul describes Jesus as descending 'by the flesh' from the house of David, which is Joseph's lineage. The construct of the virgin conception is something that was added early in the church's history, but its link to the scripture in tenuous.

Personally, I completely agree with the sentiment of the poster: regardless of how exactly God got it done, I think it's very realistic to expect a bit of marital complications given her history.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Knalus

It's a scientific fact, they actually can.

Sorry, what?

[T@T]

Outside of our resident thumper does even the most devoted catholic actually believe Mary was a virgin and God made her pregnant?

Maybe someone can correct me but the church wants you to believe that Joseph married Mary and kept her a virgin for God to sweep down and magically make her pregnant? Then it was his job to be his foster father.

My goodness, I would like to see the IQ tests on the people who believe that story!

[stuck_in_chuk]

Originally Posted by octothorp

But there's nowhere in the bible that explicitly states that Mary and God did not engage in some form of copulation. Matthew simply references Isaiah, who, in the original hebrew version, had simply said 'young woman', not virgin. And in Luke, Mary says that she is a virgin, but that conversation happened before the conception, so it doesn't state that she's still a virgin post conception. And Paul describes Jesus as descending 'by the flesh' from the house of David, which is Joseph's lineage. The construct of the virgin conception is something that was added early in the church's history, but its link to the scripture in tenuous.

The fact that Paul, the author of the book of Mark, and the author of the book of John fail to mention this rather important detail of the life of Jesus suggest that it was added later to bolster the story.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lololololololololololol

Virgins can't get pregnant, my friend.

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Sorry, what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_insemination

[photon]

Originally Posted by Playfair

Fair enough. If that is what they choose to do then that is fine. But that is what the Truth is. You can't call yourself a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth. The two don't go together.

And yet there are Christians who do not believe in the virgin birth. You may not call them Christians, but they do. Who judges such things? Surely not you or I.

Some biblical scholars think that the concept of a virgin birth was added to Christianity later on. Paul doesn't mention a virgin birth and his writings are earlier than the gospels, and Paul does specifically talk about Jesus' birth. Mark is the earliest gospel and doesn't mention it either.

Matthew has the virgin birth, but Matthew always goes out of the way to try and fit his account with his reading of OT prophecy.

Some view it as a fulfillment of what they think is a prophecy in Isiah 7:14, but it appears that the authors of Matthew and Luke may have been using an incorrect translation of Isiah in Greek, where "young woman" is mistakenly translated as virgin.

Even some modern translations of bibles translate Isiah 7:14 correctly in that they say "young woman" rather than "virgin".

Originally Posted by Playfair

Jesus was born with a sin nature, like all of us, that he inherited through Mary. He was sinless because He was the Son of God and though tempted like all of us are, He never sinned. If He didn't go to the cross and He choose not to die, He would still be walking amongst us. He would not have tasted death.

The doctrine of original sin didn't come about until the second century and was debated and changed in the church for long after, so while maybe important it can't be critical to Christianity, otherwise people before that weren't Christian.

Catholics also believe differently, they believe that Mary was preserved and immune from original sin.

Originally Posted by Playfair

But He choose to die for us. Now you can say that it is all hogwash, that you don't believe it, but that doesn't take away from the fact that is what the Bible says, and that is what true believers in Christ would know.

That's what some people's interpretation of the Bible says, which is different.

Originally Posted by Playfair

It is very basic theology, much like Jesus rising from the dead. If you don't believe that, you are not a true believer, you are a pretender. You may have some of the same beliefs, but Holy Spirit does not indwell you. You are not born again into Christ.

If it was basic theology and those that didn't believe it aren't true believers, that would mean all the Christians before the doctrine was first developed were actually not Christians at all?

Salvation comes through belief in Christ or through good works or a combination (depending on who's interpretation of which gospels you believe), belief in the doctrine of original sin doesn't seem to be specified as a requirement.

So it would still be possible to believe in the completed work of Christ on the cross and redemption through the shedding of blood without the doctrines of either the virgin birth or original sin, and even when I was a Christian I wouldn't have presumed to call my revelation of scripture superior to another's.

To denounce them as Christians does both you and them a disservice I think.

So getting back to the point of the billboard, not everyone believes that every word of the Bible is literally true and is to be taken thus, and they're trying to express that with the billboard.

EDIT: See, that's what happens when you leave a post in the middle and come back to complete it, others steal your thunder!

[photon]

Originally Posted by T@T

Outside of our resident thumper does even the most devoted catholic actually believe Mary was a virgin and God made her pregnant?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b.htm
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/har...ex.asp?pid=359

According to this they say in polls about 80% of American adults believe in the virgin birth.

Originally Posted by Knalus

I like arguing with you, Photon. More than some, I'd have to say.

Thanks, I always try to "do unto others as I would have them do unto me"

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

And yet there are Christians who do not believe in the virgin birth. You may not call them Christians, but they do. Who judges such things? Surely not you or I.

Some biblical scholars think that the concept of a virgin birth was added to Christianity later on. Paul doesn't mention a virgin birth and his writings are earlier than the gospels, and Paul does specifically talk about Jesus' birth. Mark is the earliest gospel and doesn't mention it either.

Matthew has the virgin birth, but Matthew always goes out of the way to try and fit his account with his reading of OT prophecy.

Some view it as a fulfillment of what they think is a prophecy in Isiah 7:14, but it appears that the authors of Matthew and Luke may have been using an incorrect translation of Isiah in Greek, where "young woman" is mistakenly translated as virgin.

Even some modern translations of bibles translate Isiah 7:14 correctly in that they say "young woman" rather than "virgin".

I just wanted to point out that I agree with your points here. The ultimate problem and conflict is that if Christ was not born from a virgin Mary then it discounts the meaning of Christ's placement in history. The idea is that his birth has no human interference but a gift directly from God, basically a sacrifice from God, his only son. That is going to be why it is so important that Mary was a virgin.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by photon

http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b.htm
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/har...ex.asp?pid=359

According to this they say in polls about 80% of American adults believe in the virgin birth.

Brutal...

That country has the largest and most powerful military on the planet, very scary if the people are that stupid.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

I just wanted to point out that I agree with your points here. The ultimate problem and conflict is that if Christ was not born from a virgin Mary then it discounts the meaning of Christ's placement in history. The idea is that his birth has no human interference but a gift directly from God, basically a sacrifice from God, his only son. That is going to be why it is so important that Mary was a virgin.

True I guess, but that's going about it backwards. If they refuse to consider something because they don't like the consequences of that thing, then that's flawed reasoning.

[photon]

Originally Posted by T@T

Brutal...

That country has the largest and most powerful military on the planet, very scary if the people are that stupid.

I don't think it's necessarily stupidity, if those exact same people had been born in a Muslim country they'd believe things about Islam. If they'd been born in a much less religious country they'd have different beliefs.

Most people don't sit down and research the history of the doctrine of original sin, or talk to a theologian about the virgin birth, or learn Hebrew, etc.. They just go with what they were taught because there's no good reason to think any differently for them.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by 4X4

2. Mary and Joseph were married, right? For how long?

3. What guy doesn't plow his wife on their wedding night?

Isn't it necessary to consumate your marriage to make it legit? (I honestly have no idea what the Bible says about this.)

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by 4X4

1. That must have been the most painful birth in history.

LOL. I was there for the birth of both of my children. I don't think regular intercourse before hand helped ease any of the pain.

[quote=4X4;2210697]
2. Mary and Joseph were married, right? For how long? ;/quote]

We would call it betrothed or engaged. Marriages were arranged by the family while the children were quite young. Mary was probably only 14 or 15 and Joseph maybe a couple of years older than that. Joseph's occupation would have probably been the same as his fathers and he would have been living under his father's roof. When Joseph and his family thought he was ready for the responsibility they would help him build a home. They then would have a marriage feast for the couple. If it was a rich family this celebration would last for days.

As an interesting side note: Joseph and ultimately Jesus were carpenters but, carpenters didn't generally build houses. They would have built furniture. Jesus would have to been quite strong to work in that trade.

Originally Posted by 4X4

3. What guy doesn't plow his wife on their wedding night?

I'm sure because Joseph didn't divorce Mary but, rather moved in with her most though that he had jumped the gun before his wedding night. Probably wasn't that uncommon.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't think it's necessarily stupidity, if those exact same people had been born in a Muslim country they'd believe things about Islam.

Can you imagine a country like Iran with the USA's fire power!

Maybe "stupid" is the wrong word but anyone that allows a religious belief to cause wars and murder is stupid and ######ed considering all those beliefs can be shot down in flames very quickly.

Humanity has proven that religion is "stupid" and has no place among us.
God is imaginary and only mans own fear of not living forever keeps him alive.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by T@T

Humanity has proven that religion is "stupid" and has no place among us.

With over 80% of the world being religious I don't see how this is the case.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Burninator

With over 80% of the world being religious I don't see how this is the case.

Thankfully that percentage is falling

[Slava]

[quote=Calgaryborn;2211918]LOL. I was there for the birth of both of my children. I don't think regular intercourse before hand helped ease any of the pain.

Originally Posted by 4X4

2. Mary and Joseph were married, right? For how long? ;/quote]

We would call it betrothed or engaged. Marriages were arranged by the family while the children were quite young. Mary was probably only 14 or 15 and Joseph maybe a couple of years older than that. Joseph's occupation would have probably been the same as his fathers and he would have been living under his father's roof. When Joseph and his family thought he was ready for the responsibility they would help him build a home. They then would have a marriage feast for the couple. If it was a rich family this celebration would last for days.

As an interesting side note: Joseph and ultimately Jesus were carpenters but, carpenters didn't generally build houses. They would have built furniture. Jesus would have to been quite strong to work in that trade.



I'm sure because Joseph didn't divorce Mary but, rather moved in with her most though that he had jumped the gun before his wedding night. Probably wasn't that uncommon.

I can't believe I'm even going to post in this thread, and certainly don't want to stir anything up. I'm just curious by that bolded part:

1. Are you saying that they weren't actually married?

2. If they were married and Joseph "jumped the gun"then are you saying that she wasn't a virgin then?

I'm seriously just asking and really don't want to wade into a religious debate at all here!

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by T@T

Brutal...

That country has the largest and most powerful military on the planet, very scary if the people are that stupid.

From the site: "Various polls have found that about 80% of American adults believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. This exceeds the total number of American adults who identify themselves as Christian or Muslim. In fact, 47% of non-Christian adults also believe in the virgin birth"

47% of non-Christians believe in the virgin birth? Nah. That was probably a poorly worded question to get those numbers. Furthermore, for many people in the States religion is more of a cultural phenomenon. They don't really think about things like the virgin birth and don't really care if it's true or not.

[You Need a Thneed]

[QUOTE=Slava;2212118]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

LOL. I was there for the birth of both of my children. I don't think regular intercourse before hand helped ease any of the pain.



I can't believe I'm even going to post in this thread, and certainly don't want to stir anything up. I'm just curious by that bolded part:

1. Are you saying that they weren't actually married?

2. If they were married and Joseph "jumped the gun"then are you saying that she wasn't a virgin then?

I'm seriously just asking and really don't want to wade into a religious debate at all here!

Joseph and Mary were not married at the time of Jesus' birth, they were betrothed to be married - more binding then what we call engagement, but less that what we (and they) called marriage. So, they weren't married, but it would have required a divorce to break up their union.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Burninator

With over 80% of the world being religious I don't see how this is the case.

Just because the majority are involved in religion doesn't mean it's correct to do so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying religion is right or wrong, just that a majority shouldn't always validate something. For example I would guess that the majority of the world would believe that gay marriage is wrong ... that doesn't mean it is.