Vatican tries to wiggle out of sex abuse scams by....

[jammies]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

But at the same time Im also tired of the holier-than-thou agnostics or athiests who go out of their way to sensationalize every religious scandal to talk about how smart they are that they dont practice.

Serious question - do you consider yourself more enlightened than non-Catholics? And by enlightened, I don't necessarily mean superior, but in the sense that you have beliefs that are true while others have mistaken beliefs that you might respect but nevertheless feel are false?

The current fashion for pretending that everyone's beliefs are equally valid bumps up against reality - if you REALLY believe you are right, people that disagree with you aren't "differently right", they are wrong. This is a fundamental hypocrisy of our society that is akin to the hypocrisies we decry in older societies, such as the dichotomy between proclaiming equality of men while keeping slaves in 18th century American society, or Victorian repression of female sexuality in the upper classes while overlooking rampant prostitution in the poor.

This is why evangelicals, who are much more forthright about being "right" where everyone else is, to varying degrees, "wrong", continually ignore the proprieties and rail against homosexuality and other (from their viewpoint) immoralities in defiance of the consensus that says another person's beliefs are worthy of respect - their viewpoint is that right is right, and wrong is wrong, and if society says differently, society needs to be changed. In doing so, they've exposed the weakness of the consensus, which cannot be a long-term solution if major portions of the community won't abide by the rules. To a lesser extent, radical Muslims have also shown that tolerance for differing beliefs is difficult to sustain when some believers discard that tolerance as error.

To get to the ultimate point - there are two sustainable models of tolerance for belief. In one, beliefs are subordinated to common practice, and beliefs outside that practice are suppressed - for example, the Romans incorporated local gods into their own pantheon, and you were free to worship as you would, as long as you acknowledge the primacy of the Roman gods and especially the emperor as regent of ALL gods on earth - which is where the Jews opted out, and eventually were repressed for their trouble. This is also how most Western societies functioned up until the middle of last century - you could be non-Christian, but you were marginalized and were forced to conform to some degree to Christian ideals.

In the second model, all belief is acknowledged to be equally invalid, and none of them is given serious consideration as a source of legitimacy. This is the model I, and I suspect almost all, atheists prefer. Should we be ashamed to reject the unsustainable "tolerance" model for one that not only doesn't relegate us to becoming fringe citizens, but destroys the power of mutually incompatible beliefs to use society as a platform for conflict?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Thor

This is another retread of the same topic we get on here each week. This week its about catholics. Next week muslims. Week after that it will be about mormons or an offshoot of the LDS. Then on to the jews. Back to Catholics. Add a dose of anglican criticism. Then back to the muslims again.

Rinse and repeat.

If you dont like someone pointing out the obvious, then dont respond to my posts in this thread. Im catholic. I find these allegations disgusting if true. But at the same time Im also tired of the holier-than-thou agnostics or athiests who go out of their way to sensationalize every religious scandal to talk about how smart they are that they dont practice. This week its catholics, and like I said above, next week it will be someone else, and it never ends.

So when the Vatican tries to excuse away the abuse by suggesting other religions are just as bad and if not worse, and also to suggest its not pedophilia but homosexuality this is something you are offended I bring up.

Sorry but the Vatican or the Shriners for all I care deserve to be called out and made to feel the wrath of secular and religious people when they attempt to hide the crime, deflect or excuse it.

As a Catholic I'm sure you agree its wrong, but yet you fight me on the topic of I think I'm better than religious people. I prefer to judge people on their actions and pick on particular issues rather than a broad 'religion sucks boo' type attitude.

We sweep too many of these topics like the abuse of children in your church, the anti gay sentiment coming out of the Vatican not to mention the Mormon's fighting prop 9 in California, the evangelical zeal against the gay rights movement, etc..

The whole point of these discussions is to freely call out things we don't agree with, exactly why political threads are often massive, passionate and long. You'll notice the same can be said for these threads, they have a lot of people involved and while not every one of them is a gem, there are certainly a lot of great discussions with rational people on both sides of the fence.

For example, Political threads I tend to stay away from, I find them frustrating and only make me mad since I'm so disillusioned with politics and the partisanship that is so prevalent in our countries now.

Its just that religion is a sensitive topic to some people, people find this stuff offensive because its a topic thats been taboo for so damn long, well if you can't stand our elitist know it all talk, then why bother coming in here at all, let alone tell us to not have a conversation about something we do care about.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Thor

This is another retread of the same topic we get on here each week. This week its about catholics. Next week muslims. Week after that it will be about mormons or an offshoot of the LDS. Then on to the jews. Back to Catholics. Add a dose of anglican criticism. Then back to the muslims again.

Rinse and repeat.

If you dont like someone pointing out the obvious, then dont respond to my posts in this thread. Im catholic. I find these allegations disgusting if true. But at the same time Im also tired of the holier-than-thou agnostics or athiests who go out of their way to sensationalize every religious scandal to talk about how smart they are that they dont practice. This week its catholics, and like I said above, next week it will be someone else, and it never ends.

I agree completely and from my viewpoint I'm not offended by the article itself, it doesn't surprise me sadly that this is happening in the Catholic system. One reason why I don't even associate myself with catholicism.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Finny61

I agree completely and from my viewpoint I'm not offended by the article itself, it doesn't surprise me sadly that this is happening in the Catholic system. One reason why I don't even associate myself with catholicism.

Im quite sure that the Catholics are not alone in this pot, unless you have proof otherwise?

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Im quite sure that the Catholics are not alone in this pot, unless you have proof otherwise?

I know for a fact that this is a problem across the board where religious leaders have that access to kids, access to that kind of trust, and the ability to use the religion to cover up their 'sins'.

Of course, it is only a small minority of religious leaders (priests, reverends, elders, ministers... etc.) that do this. For example the Jehovahs Witnesses have had many cases of covering up child molestation... it is a problem of the organized religions wanting to keep their problems hidden, to deal with these situations internally. The people at the top of these religions may not realize it, but this practice is very damaging to the victims... and worse, it keeps those people in a position to harm more children.

[Mike Oxlong]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Im quite sure that the Catholics are not alone in this pot, unless you have proof otherwise?

It happens with:
Catholics
Jews
Mormans
Muslims
Hindu's

And believe it or not there are even pedophiles out there who are agnostic and aetheists.

It's obviously completely unnacceptable by anyone. When it happens to someone in an organized religion the situation is magnified.

By no means are non religous groups exempt from having these disgusting pedophiles in their circle.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Im quite sure that the Catholics are not alone in this pot, unless you have proof otherwise?

It's everywhere, secular society and public school systems too. Pick a newspaper for proof. I'm basically saying its prevalent and troubling in the Catholic church system.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mike Oxlong

It happens with:
Catholics
Jews
Mormans
Muslims
Hindu's

And believe it or not there are even pedophiles out there who are agnostic and aetheists.

It's obviously completely unnacceptable by anyone. When it happens to someone in an organized religion the situation is magnified.

By no means are non religous groups exempt from having these disgusting pedophiles in their circle.

Yes you are correct...there are Peds everywhere. The difference is Atheists or Agnostics dont round them up in chapels/churches/synogogues/temples and select them. But you are 100% correct...unacceptable anywhere.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Thor

This is another retread of the same topic we get on here each week. This week its about catholics. Next week muslims. Week after that it will be about mormons or an offshoot of the LDS. Then on to the jews. Back to Catholics. Add a dose of anglican criticism. Then back to the muslims again.

Rinse and repeat.

If you dont like someone pointing out the obvious, then dont respond to my posts in this thread. Im catholic. I find these allegations disgusting if true. But at the same time Im also tired of the holier-than-thou agnostics or athiests who go out of their way to sensationalize every religious scandal to talk about how smart they are that they dont practice. This week its catholics, and like I said above, next week it will be someone else, and it never ends.

You're right. It's much better to just pretend this doesn't happen and hope the children keep quiet, than it is to risk upsetting church-goers by having a frank and open discussion.

Sarcasm aside, I would think that a more appropriate response would be for a practicing member of the Catholic Church to want to actively discuss this topic... with the appropriate Church officials at the appropriate Church levels.

The important thing to remember here, is that we're not talking about issues of improper tithing, or whether or not Stephen Harper ate the Host Wafer. We're talking about confirmed cases of child molestation... and protecting our children from ever having to experience that supersedes the "polite factor" by an immeasurable amount.

I don't care how uncomfortable this conversation makes people. If it's happening to children who belong to your particular religion (regardless of the actual religion), than you have a societal responsibility to make it clear that you will not tolerate it for even a moment longer.

There is no grey area in this discussion. It's as black and white as you can possibly get.

[killer_carlson]

dont you dare accuse me of suggesting this should be wrapped up. That is utter bullsh_t. Never even came close to suggesting that at all.

If this thread was about the evils of pedophilia, then fine, let it go. But because it's also about crapping on organized religion - any religion - I'm saying I'm tired of these threads.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

dont you dare accuse me of suggesting this should be wrapped up. That is utter bullsh_t. Never even came close to suggesting that at all.

If this thread was about the evils of pedophilia, then fine, let it go. But because it's also about crapping on organized religion - any religion - I'm saying I'm tired of these threads.

Well stated for the truth!

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

dont you dare accuse me of suggesting this should be wrapped up. That is utter bullsh_t. Never even came close to suggesting that at all.

If this thread was about the evils of pedophilia, then fine, let it go. But because it's also about crapping on organized religion - any religion - I'm saying I'm tired of these threads.

First of all, I wasn't personally directing anything at you. I think I kept my comment pretty generic. I was just quoting your post as the example.

Second... All I'm saying is the "you're just trying to crap on religion" argument goes out the window when we're discussing confirmed cases of child molestation.

My intention wasn't to accuse you of anything. My intention was to suggest that maybe people might want to use their voices and raise this issue with the people inside their organizations that have the ability to elicit change.

I couldn't care less if we're talking about a religion or a sport or an after-school study class. I honestly don't. Look at my posting history, I hardly ever post anything in a religion-themed thread.

My -only- point is that, with this particular issue, the proper response (in my eyes) is not to get your back up about "people crapping on religion" - it's to say, "Hey this is going on inside an organization that I am a member of. I will raise this issue with someone at my Church and make it clear that I won't tolerate it happening any longer. I will also encourage other members of my organization to do the same."

Believe me, if this thread was about the President of Soccer Canada saying the same things that the Pope just said, and someone responded by saying "Stop crapping on soccer!" I'd be making this exact same post about soccer parents needing to raise this issue with soccer officials.

Religion has nothing to do with this discussion. At least, it has nothing to do with my part of this discussion. I can't speak for anyone else's intentions.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Yes you are correct...there are Peds everywhere. The difference is Atheists or Agnostics dont round them up in chapels/churches/synogogues/temples and select them. But you are 100% correct...unacceptable anywhere.

I didn't realize pedophilia was on the job application form as a required skill set. These people aren't open about their crimes until they are caught. In an organization the size of the Catholic Church, there are bound to be pedophiles and child molestors in the most opportune position to prey on children.

Only difference from anywhere else being that the media feasts on these kind of stories and the Vatican responds by trying to cover it up.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by jammies

To get to the ultimate point - there are two sustainable models of tolerance for belief. In one, beliefs are subordinated to common practice, and beliefs outside that practice are suppressed - for example, the Romans incorporated local gods into their own pantheon, and you were free to worship as you would, as long as you acknowledge the primacy of the Roman gods and especially the emperor as regent of ALL gods on earth - which is where the Jews opted out, and eventually were repressed for their trouble. This is also how most Western societies functioned up until the middle of last century - you could be non-Christian, but you were marginalized and were forced to conform to some degree to Christian ideals.

In the second model, all belief is acknowledged to be equally invalid, and none of them is given serious consideration as a source of legitimacy. This is the model I, and I suspect almost all, atheists prefer. Should we be ashamed to reject the unsustainable "tolerance" model for one that not only doesn't relegate us to becoming fringe citizens, but destroys the power of mutually incompatible beliefs to use society as a platform for conflict?

I think that there is only one model. The group that is in control will always set the Norms of society whether they be religious belief, Rights or even something as simple as language. For a long time religion has been very effective at maintianing control so other groups were forced to live in a Christmas and Easter centric society.

It doesn't really matter if society is centered around belief or a society that only accepts things that can be observed measured and tested. You will always have the minority group beliefs being marginalized.

If what you call a second model of rejecting all belief as invalid beomces the majority social norm you will definately like it more because you won't be a fringe citizen but fringe citizens will still exist they just won't count because they believe in things that can't be measured.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

If you dont like someone pointing out the obvious, then dont respond to my posts in this thread. Im catholic. I find these allegations disgusting if true. But at the same time Im also tired of the holier-than-thou agnostics or athiests who go out of their way to sensationalize every religious scandal to talk about how smart they are that they dont practice. This week its catholics, and like I said above, next week it will be someone else, and it never ends.

The thread started with someone pointing out the obvious.

ANYWAY, if the religious among us are tired of us holier-than-thou types sensationalizing (or, apparently, mentioning) these men-of-the-cloth-raping-children stories, y'all shouldn't bitch, you should fight back.

Every time a representative of an international non-god-believer group gets arrested for humping a nine-year old, post the story on here. That will even things up right away.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Thor

This is another retread of the same topic we get on here each week. This week its about catholics. Next week muslims. Week after that it will be about mormons or an offshoot of the LDS. Then on to the jews. Back to Catholics. Add a dose of anglican criticism. Then back to the muslims again.

Rinse and repeat.

Actually this week its about child abuse, the week before its about women's rights, the week before its about gay rights, the week before its about....

The point is religion is a huge part of the political and daily discourse of the world, and if this offends you, you can certainly pretend it isn't something worth arguing with or debating.

If you dont like someone pointing out the obvious, then dont respond to my posts in this thread. Im catholic. I find these allegations disgusting if true.

Well being that you responded to this thread to tell us we shouldn't speak about this, don't you find it ironic you are bothered I replied to your post?

So fun that you put the caveat 'disgusting if true' to the end there, do you not believe your Catholic church has had a very serious problem with child abuse, do you not see the fact the church has at every turn done its best to deny, deflect, hide/coverup, and make excuses for a systematic problem that is not unique to any country.

But at the same time Im also tired of the holier-than-thou agnostics or athiests who go out of their way to sensationalize every religious scandal to talk about how smart they are that they dont practice.

This is such a ridiculous statement, you cannot argue the point so attack the poster. The fact is I disagree with the idea of God, but I am more than happy to debate it or even respect those forward thinking religious people as I've shown in countless debates.

Its ironic we are holier than thou when we are a 'response' to the religious zealotry, political interference of organized religion that exists today. Apperantly its ok to tell everyone how to live their lives, to what rights we should have according to individual beliefs, but if secularists stand up and argue against this we are strident, rude, arrogant, etc.. Is there anything more arrogant than suggesting not only you believe in God but that you know the mind of God and that he hates fags, hates condoms (not sure where in the bible that is), thinks priests should be celibate, and that a WAFER is the body of Christ.

No, no arrogance or anything with that. You just don't like the fact we bring it up. This is akin to debating politics, liberals vs conservatives. Each side calls the other idiots, and yes each of them think their positions are superior.

I think my argument is strong, but I'm not gonna be mad if a religious person argues their side, I actually quite enjoy it.

Ironically HOZ thanked your original post, irony because he constantly posts threads with a massive hate on for Obama that many posters comment he should stop or not keep doing it.

I never would tell him to stop, I disagree with much of what he says, but I would fight hard to support his every right to do it.

This week its catholics, and like I said above, next week it will be someone else, and it never ends.

This weeks its child abuse at the hands of an organized institution, next week its another. But realize these are debates on ISSUES and the fact it happens to involve organized religion does NOT legitimize the value of the topic nor should it be shut down because it annoys you.

If that was the case we should purge the off topic forum of any debates that offend or bother people, good bye to HOZ's threads on Obama, goodbye any threads that 1 person is offended by.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by GGG

It doesn't really matter if society is centered around belief or a society that only accepts things that can be observed measured and tested. You will always have the minority group beliefs being marginalized.

It matters a great deal; the tolerant society I see around me can become the precursor to a truly emancipated culture, or it can become yet another in a long line of cultures of belief. Your claim is akin to saying that it doesn't matter whether the doctors or the inmates rule the asylum, as either way someone is locked up in the cells.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Thor

Actually this week its about child abuse, the week before its about women's rights, the week before its about gay rights, the week before its about....

The point is religion is a huge part of the political and daily discourse of the world, and if this offends you, you can certainly pretend it isn't something worth arguing with or debating.



Well being that you responded to this thread to tell us we shouldn't speak about this, don't you find it ironic you are bothered I replied to your post?

So fun that you put the caveat 'disgusting if true' to the end there, do you not believe your Catholic church has had a very serious problem with child abuse, do you not see the fact the church has at every turn done its best to deny, deflect, hide/coverup, and make excuses for a systematic problem that is not unique to any country.



This is such a ridiculous statement, you cannot argue the point so attack the poster. The fact is I disagree with the idea of God, but I am more than happy to debate it or even respect those forward thinking religious people as I've shown in countless debates.

Its ironic we are holier than thou when we are a 'response' to the religious zealotry, political interference of organized religion that exists today. Apperantly its ok to tell everyone how to live their lives, to what rights we should have according to individual beliefs, but if secularists stand up and argue against this we are strident, rude, arrogant, etc.. Is there anything more arrogant than suggesting not only you believe in God but that you know the mind of God and that he hates fags, hates condoms (not sure where in the bible that is), thinks priests should be celibate, and that a WAFER is the body of Christ.

No, no arrogance or anything with that. You just don't like the fact we bring it up. This is akin to debating politics, liberals vs conservatives. Each side calls the other idiots, and yes each of them think their positions are superior.

I think my argument is strong, but I'm not gonna be mad if a religious person argues their side, I actually quite enjoy it.

Ironically HOZ thanked your original post, irony because he constantly posts threads with a massive hate on for Obama that many posters comment he should stop or not keep doing it.

I never would tell him to stop, I disagree with much of what he says, but I would fight hard to support his every right to do it.



This weeks its child abuse at the hands of an organized institution, next week its another. But realize these are debates on ISSUES and the fact it happens to involve organized religion does NOT legitimize the value of the topic nor should it be shut down because it annoys you.

If that was the case we should purge the off topic forum of any debates that offend or bother people, good bye to HOZ's threads on Obama, goodbye any threads that 1 person is offended by.

Hmmmm, so 4 threads in 9 months is constant? Massive, massive hate-on for Obama. I am overwhelming the CP off topic board.




Anyways, Thor....like the Iraq war threads of yester-year the religion ones just simple rehash the same things....over and over and over again.

THE ONE on the other hand keeps doing a helluva Jimmy Carter impression.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by jammies

It matters a great deal; the tolerant society I see around me can become the precursor to a truly emancipated culture, or it can become yet another in a long line of cultures of belief. Your claim is akin to saying that it doesn't matter whether the doctors or the inmates rule the asylum, as either way someone is locked up in the cells.

Provided reasonable rights are afforded to all citizens it really doesn't matter what agenda the persons in charge are running.

I challange your tenant that a truly emancipated culture could ever occur. There will always be believers in some sort of faith based system so these people won't be truly emancipated it an athiest centric culture.

I think that what we want are ethical doctors. An athiest ruling group will have all of the same incentives to maintain power as a religious run they will just find different means to do it. Just because someone doesn't believe in something doesn't inherently make them a champion of human rights and freedom.

[Mike Oxlong]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Yes you are correct...there are Peds everywhere. The difference is Atheists or Agnostics dont round them up in chapels/churches/synogogues/temples and select them. But you are 100% correct...unacceptable anywhere.

No they don't round them up in Churches/synagogues/temples/chapels etc....
They have to use schools/playgrounds/shopping malls/ the internet etc... to round them up.

Obviously the places of worship weren't built for pedophiles to round up little boys and it's silly to even suggest that. Unfortunately there are some bad apples that are using these facilities for their own twisted gain. Just like the aethiest and agnostic sickos use playgrounds and schools for their own sick gain. Was that the intended use for those facilities?