Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose for humankind

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That same argument is used to point to a huge climate altering event namely: a flood. The fossil record is a record of extinction. Mass extinction starting right after the flood and then slowing but continuing to this day.

That doesn't really make much sense though.. the ark already is too small to house all extant species, if you change the story to allow for 99% of species to die off after the flood, you need an ark 100 times the volume.

The evidence does not point to a single mass extinction at the time when the flood is claimed to have happened anyway.

Plus there is no genetic bottleneck in all extant species at a single time which would be required if the the population of every species was reduced to a handful.

Of course the DNA may have been altered in such a way to remove evidence of a bottleneck, space warped inside the ark to house many more animals than physically possible, and the earth changed so that the geology shows no record of a global flood, but then the question becomes why change the evidence?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Bottom line: Believing science has found plausible evidence of the development of the human eye is akin to believing Christ made an appearance in your cheese grilled sandwich. You've got to use your imagination, look at it from just the right angle, and really want it to be true.

Only if you really don't understand the evidence.

Have you read Finding Darwin's God by Ken Miller (a believer) yet?

[troutman]

I thought eyes evolved indepedently half a dozen times in earth's history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...44d8e1feb48b88

The genetics of eye formation thus suggest that vertebrate and insect eyes are homologous, yet it seems impossible to trace the eyes themselves back to a common ancestor. How can these apparently incompatible facts be understood?

[Flashpoint]

There was a great scene in the extended edition of "Kingdom of Heaven" that showed how the whole burning bush myth happened. It was pretty cool.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Says who? Religion has nothing to do with being a good person. Religion is used to direct people, often times for good reasons, often times for bad.

Says me. Show me a religion which has nothing to do with teaching values. What are the commandments? What is Buddhism all about?

I agree that religion is used to direct people, and even noted in my post that it has all too often been used poorly.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

That doesn't really make much sense though.. the ark already is too small to house all extant species, if you change the story to allow for 99% of species to die off after the flood, you need an ark 100 times the volume.

This has been explained by countless Creation Scientists. The account of the flood says that 2 of every kind was kept with the exception of a few species where more was kept. In other words the Ark didn't need more than two members of the canine family or deer family and so on. The variations we see since the flood are the variations within species we see today. Also it would make sense for the young to be taken which would require less space. If God drew all these animals to the Ark it would follow that He would have also had a hand in preserving them and dispersing them.

Originally Posted by photon

The evidence does not point to a single mass extinction at the time when the flood is claimed to have happened anyway.

That's because when you look at layers beneath the earth's surface you see millions of years of slow evolution. I see layers of sediment left over by a world wide flood. After all that's how a fossil is formed: the Animal or plant must be quickly covered by sediment to avoid scavengers and allow the minerals to slowly leech in to the space where the bones are slowly disintegrating.

Originally Posted by photon

Plus there is no genetic bottleneck in all extant species at a single time which would be required if the the population of every species was reduced to a handful.

Science doesn't have genetics to work with; They have fossils. Fossils are not produced except in extraordinary conditions. If they were and evolution was true one would expect to easily track the evolution of mankind. Beyond the flood those conditions have been rarely met. I suppose the floods produced by Mount Saint Helens is a contemporary example of such conditions being produced but, they don't happen enough to show any bottleneck.

Originally Posted by photon

Of course the DNA may have been altered in such a way to remove evidence of a bottleneck, space warped inside the ark to house many more animals than physically possible, and the earth changed so that the geology shows no record of a global flood, but then the question becomes why change the evidence?

Your problem as always is in your interpretation of the evidence. History is 5% evidence and 95% supposition based on that 5% evidence. Any science based on history cannot be embraced with the same confidence as science confirmed by the scientific method. It's too easy to see something in your grilled cheese sandwich that's not there.

Legions of scientists and billions of dollars have been spent over the last 100 years looking for evidence to demonstrate this Universe could come into being without a Creator. Today we know much more about the natural world. It's too bad the lines between what we know and what scientists are hoping they are seeing has become so blurred.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

This has been explained by countless Creation Scientists. The account of the flood says that 2 of every kind was kept with the exception of a few species where more was kept.

The "science" you speak of is shoddy at best. It's called 'Baraminology' and, even among the Creation Science community is poorly understood. For example, no one has been able to offer a definition of what a "Kind" (or Baramin) is. Is 'Cat' a kind? Or is 'Carnivore' a kind? At what point in the classification system is the division of kind? Nothing has been offered from the Creation community other than a vague notion without any kind of supporting evidence.

Your problem as always is in your interpretation of the evidence. History is 5% evidence and 95% supposition based on that 5% evidence. Any science based on history cannot be embraced with the same confidence as science confirmed by the scientific method. It's too easy to see something in your grilled cheese sandwich that's not there.

This is one of the most common arguments that the creation community uses and is also one of the poorest as it's based on a misunderstanding of both the evidence supporting evolution and exactly what the 'scientific method' is. HINT: your grade six science fair project is not the only way to apply the scientific method.

[EDBTZ12]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Says who? Religion has nothing to do with being a good person. Religion is used to direct people, often times for good reasons, often times for bad.

Name me one religion that directs people into bad people?

[EDBTZ12]

Originally Posted by jammies

So therefore God must have been created by a higher power then, too? After all, if complexity devolves from above...

I cannot explain how god got into power but there has to be something that explains how the human body and this earth was formed. Everyone has their choice of what to believe in and that's fine.

It's impossible to disagree with anyone's opinions because it is impossible to prove them wrong or even prove it right. Without people believing in religion i think this world would be a lot worse.

[peter12]

Oh gosh this is absolutely insane. Calgaryborn, I am beginning to suspect that people like you are just implanted strawmen. So easy to knock down.

[EDBTZ12]

Peter12 add your thoughts instead of bashing other people's opinions.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

Name me one religion that directs people into bad people?

Well.... how about all of them?


As just one example, consider Islam--which is a religion that practices as its central tenet the idea of peace, right down to its preferred salutation "peace be with you."

It's also the religion that underwrites the oppressive regimes of Saudi Arabia and a number of other places, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, suicide bombers and female genital mutilation.

And the thing is... they're really not any worse than any of the others.

[MoneyGuy]

It's nice to see a discussion like this where the athiests have not called we believers morons. I'd urge any non-believer to read The Language of God by Dr. Francis Collins, why headed the human genome project. He's one of the most respected scientists in the world and looking the incredible complexity of the universe turned him from an athiest to a Christian.

[EDBTZ12]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Well.... how about all of them?


As just one example, consider Islam--which is a religion that practices as its central tenet the idea of peace, right down to its preferred salutation "peace be with you."

It's also the religion that underwrites the oppressive regimes of Saudi Arabia and a number of other places, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, suicide bombers and female genital mutilation.

And the thing is... they're really not any worse than any of the others.

20 percent of the population in this world are muslims. Kind of hard to judge a whole religion based on some crazy fanatics. Every religion has its extremists through out history there has been a blackeye on every religion based on these lunatics but all religions are based on peace.

My queston was name one religion who teaches their followers to be bad people? I understand every religion has bad people in it but the main focus of every religion is peace.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

This has been explained by countless Creation Scientists. The account of the flood says that 2 of every kind was kept with the exception of a few species where more was kept. In other words the Ark didn't need more than two members of the canine family or deer family and so on. The variations we see since the flood are the variations within species we see today. Also it would make sense for the young to be taken which would require less space. If God drew all these animals to the Ark it would follow that He would have also had a hand in preserving them and dispersing them.

Okay, maybe you can answer a question for me.

I recently read something that questioned how koala bears got to Australia, if the flood story is true.

The story goes that the Ark ended up on Mt. Ararat (in eastern Turkey). So, how did the koala bears get from there to Australia? It's a long walk capped off by a long swim. Kangaroos had to do it too, as well as platypuses and all sorts of snakes and birds and crazy animals that are only found down there. What happened?

And another thing -- what happened to that boat?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

20 percent of the population in this world are muslims. Kind of hard to judge a whole religion based on some crazy fanatics. Every religion has its extremists through out history there has been a blackeye on every religion based on these lunatics but all religions are based on peace.

My queston was name one religion who teaches their followers to be bad people? I understand every religion has bad people in it but the main focus of every religion is peace.

Depends on how you define "bad people".

I think "teaching" children that people who believe different things are going to spend eternity being tortured in a fiery dungeon after they die qualifies as "teaching their followers to be bad people". Luckily most people dismiss these absurd lessons as soon as possible, but the effort is made right from the get-go.

[metallicat]

Wait a minute, people actually argue that Noahs Ark happened? Like I've said earlier, I'm no scientist, but unless the ark was the size of Alberta, how did two of every species fit?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Okay, maybe you can answer a question for me.

I recently read something that questioned how koala bears got to Australia, if the flood story is true.

The story goes that the Ark ended up on Mt. Ararat (in eastern Turkey). So, how did the koala bears get from there to Australia? It's a long walk capped off by a long swim. Kangaroos had to do it too, as well as platypuses and all sorts of snakes and birds crazy animals that are only found down there. What happened?

And another thing -- what happened to that boat?

I don't know how the animals got there. Again history is 95% supposition. There is this verse in Genesis :

Gen 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.

That kind of suggests that shortly after the flood there were some pretty significant seismic shifts. I've heard Creation scientists who have suggested that most of the mountain ranges we have to day were formed in the year the waters covered the earth and the immediate years after that. They even quote mathematical evidence suggesting that the erosion rates of these ranges demonstrate that.

The whereabouts of the ark is kind of a silly question. You simply don't find wooden structures lasting thousands of years. If it exists intact that in and of itself would be a miracle. I can see portions of it being salvaged as well. The work it would have taken to produce lumber from raw logs in those days would have been immense. I can't see them letting it go to waste unless they had to leave the area quickly.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The whereabouts of the ark is kind of a silly question. You simply don't find wooden structures lasting thousands of years. If it exists intact that in and of itself would be a miracle. I can see portions of it being salvaged as well. The work it would have taken to produce lumber from raw logs in those days would have been immense. I can't see them letting it go to waste unless they had to leave the area quickly.

I agree wholeheartedly. There IS NO whereabouts, because it never happened. I mean, come on, really? How big did it have to be? How large of an area would all of the species take up if put together in one spot? How did they all gather in one location? How did they get back to their current locations? It's not physically possible in any way, shape or form.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

Name me one religion that directs people into bad people?

How about Catholicism. People did some pretty evil things during the Crusades.
How about Northern Ireland in the 70's. Protestants and Catholics did some pretty bad things in the name of Religion.
Paganism. The Incas, Aztecs, Mayans, etc were absolutely barbaric to appease thier gods.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

This has been explained by countless Creation Scientists. The account of the flood says that 2 of every kind was kept with the exception of a few species where more was kept. In other words the Ark didn't need more than two members of the canine family or deer family and so on. The variations we see since the flood are the variations within species we see today. Also it would make sense for the young to be taken which would require less space. If God drew all these animals to the Ark it would follow that He would have also had a hand in preserving them and dispersing them.



That's because when you look at layers beneath the earth's surface you see millions of years of slow evolution. I see layers of sediment left over by a world wide flood. After all that's how a fossil is formed: the Animal or plant must be quickly covered by sediment to avoid scavengers and allow the minerals to slowly leech in to the space where the bones are slowly disintegrating.

If the Ark were true and a mass extinction due to flood took place where is this world wide layer of bones and plantlife? It takes millions of years to turn these things into fossil fuels so wheres the evidence?

Fact:

1) The last mass extinction took place during the Cretaceous period 65 million years ago.

2) The last minor extinction period found in earths layers happened during the Miocene period 15 million years ago and it only killed 30% of the planets life forms.

3) Human beings didn't exist then.

4) The so called flood was a local event and these events happen all the time.

5) Genesis is the most puzzling pile of poo in the entire Bible.