Confederate Flag

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by hixxes

I'm reluctantly posting in this thread as I'm one of those stupid rednecks who associate the flag more with the Dukes of Hazzard and Southern Rock from the 70's than anything else. I would never wear or display the Confederate Flag myself as I'm not from the south or a Duke boy, but I certainly don't see the flag and immediately assume the person displaying it hates black people.

As for the second part of the post I quoted, that reminds me of someone who gets a tattoo of a symbol or letter from a different culture without looking up or doing any research into what it might really mean. I'm sure there's more than a few people walking around with a 'cool' looking Asian symbol on their back and have never confirmed that it means "respect" and not "I love chicken".

Thanks for my new sig.

EDIT: EFF, I hate it when I'm the first post of a new page in a thread and have contributed nothing.

[disco_inferno]

I had a Dodge Ram, it was badass, it had a big motor, I drove it like Bo Duke, and it had a confederate flag on the front.

I understand the flag has negative connotations in places like the Southern US, but we, in Canada, never had a war over legalized slavery. Unless you're from there, or had family there I don't think you can associate that flag ONLY with its negative connotations, it'd be like saying those Japanese Kamikaze headbands are directly associated with WWII, and the attack on pearl harbour, and anyone who wears one is a disrespectful d-bag....something I don't think is true. I've seen guys wear them in sports, driving, and just walking around, never once thinking that, its just something thats there, you don't have to assume the worst.

[transplant99]

So just an addendum to what was said earlier....

I have been out this evening with a group of guys setting up this years NFL fantasy football draft. There was 9 out of 10 of us attending. All of it was no more than a front to get together with the "boys" as we could of done everything we did via phone/email, but instead Hooters was the calling and we answered.

So midway through the evening and with everyone having more than a couple glasses of ale in our bellies, I decided to ask the question of the two black guys that were there. (Which is ironic in that 2/10 is a larger representation than the actual black US population...but I digress).

The questions were both simple but complex.

Me: "What do you as a black man feel when you see the Conferate/rebel flag?"

Him: Shannon age 32 answers...(somewhat paraphrased because i too was "beering")

"Stupid...cause we lost. Who flies a flag when they lose? Beyond that it never bothers me except one time I saw a flag the size of a semi-trailer flying on a truck half that size. When i saw that i knew what they were about, but they also had a flat tire and I would never have seen it if that hadn't happened" (I laughed at this by the way)

Brian age 33 and husband of a (smokin hot) white girl that worked for me...

"Dude (yes "dude") I have never ever worried about what that means beyond it is a symbol of the Carolinas (wrong, but again i digress) when stuff (not the word used) was going on that anyone here had nothing to do with. Let those that wish to fly it.....fly it. I dont care"

Me: "Does it represent a symbol of hate to you?"

Shannon: "Not a chance"

Brian: "Nope"


Now granted this is as small a sample as could be learned from or representative of. However, these guys are what I would call "average" guys of any skin color.

It spoke volumes to me.

[4X4]

^^ Hilarious. A couple of black dudes down in Carolina don't give a rat's ass about it, but a bunch of white dudes up here in Alberta are spending a bunch of time trying to read deeper into it. I'm ever so surprised.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

^^ Hilarious. A couple of black dudes down in Carolina don't give a rat's ass about it, but a bunch of white dudes up here in Alberta are spending a bunch of time trying to read deeper into it. I'm ever so surprised.

It takes me about a second to read deeper into it -- a guy in Alberta who has likely never even been to North Carolina running a Confederate flag on his pickup truck is saying something.

Some dudes in North Carolina might actually have a connection to the flag. Maybe their great-great-grandpappy was in the Civil War. Maybe they are "proud" of being southerners or maybe their dad had the flag in the living room for all I know.

For someone in Alberta, it really is no different than wearing Che Guevara t-shirts (like Habernac said above) -- they don't know anything about it, they don't "live" it, they weren't affected by it, but they are trying to make some goofy statement. For a Che Guevara shirt, the statement seems to be "I'm a rebel because I think this guy was cool, now excuse me while I go to my job so I can pay my iPhone bill and buy an 8 dollar pint at the Ship".

The rebel flag on the pickup truck means "I'm a rebel because I agree with what these folks in the south were fighting for, and I'm proud to be a redneck, now excuse me while I go to my job so I can pay for this pickup truck that I don't need and can't afford".

[jammies]

The origins of the Civil War are considerably more complex, and only tangentially concerned with slavery. At first the freedom of the slaves was not even an official Northern war aim, it wasn't until the war had already gone on for well over a year when Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation and began the process which would eventually end up in the 13th Amendment after the war was over.

That is not to say that the states of the South that seceded did not do so because of slavery; they saw (correctly) that the North was going to dominate the future of the USA, which went against the Southern domination that had happened up to the mid-1850s. When it became clear that no new states admitted to the Union would be slave states, and that the federal government was hostile to what they saw as the protection of "property", the secession was on.

However the federal government went to war not to protect and free the slaves, but to deny the right of secession. The successful prosecution of this war was the beginning of the vast expansion in federal powers that continues to this day and which is far different than the type of union originally envisioned by the founders, who wanted a much more decentralized model of government. So not every consequence of the Civil War is as positive as the ending of slavery.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Great post Jammies. Azure alluded to some of that earlier, but you put it very concisely.

[Royal Eagle]

Originally Posted by Azure

What is worse? Slavery, or murder? Murder sanctioned by the government?

Your version of the civil war is completely screwed up starseed.

There were slaves in the North as well. In fact, a lot of the Union government officials, including Lincoln himself, grew up in slave owning families.

But hey, keep your romantic view of the North. The rest of us will stick with reality.

The Jim Crow society and strict segregation that most people think it was first created in Mississippi and other southern states...in fact they were created in the Northern cities before the Civil War.

In the Northern states, Blacks were either denied admission to or they were segregated in, hotels, restaurants, theaters and other public facilities. Blacks had limited work, social mobility and educational opportunities. They were often denied access to public transportation in cities, and allowed on trains only in "Jim Crow" segregated cars. They were outright denied basic civil rights, such as voting rights and the right to testify in court in many states, thus leaving them open to attack by racist and violent mobs, and to being caught and sold by slave catchers. Black men and women in general were often attacked in the streets, and until the Civil War, black churches, schools and homes were looted and burned in riots in major cities all across the North.

[North East Goon]

Technically we are all slaves to the almighty dollar, the dollar bill should annoy us all a little more!

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Royal Eagle

The Jim Crow society and strict segregation that most people think it was first created in Mississippi and other southern states...in fact they were created in the Northern cities before the Civil War.

That is definitely a good point that anti-black sentiment in the North during slavery was very strong and often violent. Nonetheless, there were also strong abolitionist forces and opportunities available to blacks in the North that were not available to them in the South.

And while the Jim Crow segregation laws that came into force in the South after slavery may have taken their cues from the North, those kinds of laws were designed to limit black citizenship following emancipation... something that was unnecessary in the South when blacks simply weren't citizens at all but merely chattel.

Actually, if you check, there weren't a lot of laws regulating black and interracial behaviour in Southern states precisely because black people were objects and not subjects, and so there was no need for such laws. As an extension of the master, slaves were beholden to his wishes. After slavery - Reconstruction - there is an explosion of laws and court cases trying to limit citizenship and effectively re-enact slavery (or at least segregation) within the realm of black political freedom.

I'm not trying to present the North as a wonderful place or anything like that, but at the very least there was at least some political and legal recognition of black autonomy (even if it was severely limited) that was absent in the slave states.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It takes me about a second to read deeper into it -- a guy in Alberta who has likely never even been to North Carolina running a Confederate flag on his pickup truck is saying something.

Some dudes in North Carolina might actually have a connection to the flag. Maybe their great-great-grandpappy was in the Civil War. Maybe they are "proud" of being southerners or maybe their dad had the flag in the living room for all I know.

For someone in Alberta, it really is no different than wearing Che Guevara t-shirts (like Habernac said above) -- they don't know anything about it, they don't "live" it, they weren't affected by it, but they are trying to make some goofy statement. For a Che Guevara shirt, the statement seems to be "I'm a rebel because I think this guy was cool, now excuse me while I go to my job so I can pay my iPhone bill and buy an 8 dollar pint at the Ship".

The rebel flag on the pickup truck means "I'm a rebel because I agree with what these folks in the south were fighting for, and I'm proud to be a redneck, now excuse me while I go to my job so I can pay for this pickup truck that I don't need and can't afford".

The Civil War happened before any white people had settled in Alberta. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that people from the soutern states came to Alberta, settled down and raised their families here after the economic depression of the southern states following the Civil War.

My Great Great Grandfather from Clarke Country, Virginia, came to Cochrane in 1882 when he was hired to heard cattle and sheep from Montana by the Cochrane Ranch. Although he would have only been a child during the Civil War, he did have family who fought on both sides mostly for the CSA.

My uncle also told me once that there is a veteran of the Civil War who fought for the CSA buried in a cemetery west of Calgary (not sure which one). His grave stone has CSA engraved on it.

Most Albertans would not have a family connection with the Confederacy. But there are a few of us around who do. Personally, I don't walk around displaying the Confederate Battle Flag for all to see or even own anything other than books or magazines that have the flag on it. I find it unfortunate that the flag is being used as a symbol of hate by some groups.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jammies

The origins of the Civil War are considerably more complex, and only tangentially concerned with slavery. At first the freedom of the slaves was not even an official Northern war aim, it wasn't until the war had already gone on for well over a year when Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation and began the process which would eventually end up in the 13th Amendment after the war was over.

That is not to say that the states of the South that seceded did not do so because of slavery; they saw (correctly) that the North was going to dominate the future of the USA, which went against the Southern domination that had happened up to the mid-1850s. When it became clear that no new states admitted to the Union would be slave states, and that the federal government was hostile to what they saw as the protection of "property", the secession was on.

However the federal government went to war not to protect and free the slaves, but to deny the right of secession. The successful prosecution of this war was the beginning of the vast expansion in federal powers that continues to this day and which is far different than the type of union originally envisioned by the founders, who wanted a much more decentralized model of government. So not every consequence of the Civil War is as positive as the ending of slavery.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Great post Jammies. Azure alluded to some of that earlier, but you put it very concisely.

Well it is Jammies.



Great post.

[Mr.Unstoppable]

The Confederate flag may have racial connontations, but that's not what it represents. Only to idiots who don't look deeper than the surface.

The Confederate flag symbolizes tradition, culture, and freedom from oppression. What most people don't know is that the Civil War wasn't fought over the slaves, it was because the USA was founded as a loose union of states, each one ruling how they saw fit. The Union wanted to change what the country was founded on, and introduced Big Government, Big Brother to the USA, against the original intentions of the founding fathers.

It's about resistance of tyranny, right to bare arms against an oppressive government, and the right to live freely. It's NOT about white power.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Mr.Unstoppable

The Confederate flag may have racial connontations, but that's not what it represents. Only to idiots who don't look deeper than the surface.

The Confederate flag symbolizes tradition, culture, and freedom from oppression. What most people don't know is that the Civil War wasn't fought over the slaves, it was because the USA was founded as a loose union of states, each one ruling how they saw fit. The Union wanted to change what the country was founded on, and introduced Big Government, Big Brother to the USA, against the original intentions of the founding fathers.

It's about resistance of tyranny, right to bare arms against an oppressive government, and the right to live freely. It's NOT about white power.

Yep, and I'm sure every redneck in Alberta with no ties whatsoever to the South, who has a confederate flag on his pickup knows all of this.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Mr.Unstoppable

The Confederate flag may have racial connontations, but that's not what it represents. Only to idiots who don't look deeper than the surface.

The Confederate flag symbolizes tradition, culture, and freedom from oppression. What most people don't know is that the Civil War wasn't fought over the slaves, it was because the USA was founded as a loose union of states, each one ruling how they saw fit. The Union wanted to change what the country was founded on, and introduced Big Government, Big Brother to the USA, against the original intentions of the founding fathers.

It's about resistance of tyranny, right to bare arms against an oppressive government, and the right to live freely. It's NOT about white power.

And the Swastika represents groundedness and goodness. But that is not how the general population recognize it.

[Mr.Unstoppable]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

And the Swastika represents groundedness and goodness. But that is not how the general population recognize it.

Actually the Nazi swastika is a reverse symbol. You have to flip it around to get the positive intention out of it.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Mr.Unstoppable

Actually the Nazi swastika is a reverse symbol. You have to flip it around to get the positive intention out of it.

I fly a reverse confederate flag in my truck.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Mr.Unstoppable

Actually the Nazi swastika is a reverse symbol. You have to flip it around to get the positive intention out of it.

Actually, archaeologically it can be found either way.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Mr.Unstoppable

The Confederate flag may have racial connontations, but that's not what it represents. Only to idiots who don't look deeper than the surface.

The Confederate flag symbolizes tradition, culture, and freedom from oppression. What most people don't know is that the Civil War wasn't fought over the slaves, it was because the USA was founded as a loose union of states, each one ruling how they saw fit. The Union wanted to change what the country was founded on, and introduced Big Government, Big Brother to the USA, against the original intentions of the founding fathers.

It's about resistance of tyranny, right to bare arms against an oppressive government, and the right to live freely. It's NOT about white power.

What I wouldn't give to be able to bear arms against the tyrannical Canadian gov't we have now.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

What I wouldn't give to be able to bear arms against the tyrannical Canadian gov't we have now.

Don't twist Dr. Encyclopedia's words.