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Old 07-23-2009, 11:04 PM   #21
BlackArcher101
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Originally Posted by hulkrogan View Post
I think it was possibly early June?
Hmmm interesting, wonder why.
Would love to see one. Maybe one day they'll actually show up at an airshow (but apparently that would cost a lot in maintenance! haha)
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:06 PM   #22
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Pretty sure it will be the F-35, as Canada is a partner nation and will be licensed to do some of the manufacturing in-country
I don't think that holds a lot of merit in what we'll end up choosing though. For instance, I believe most of the existing GSE we have would alse be used for the Super Hornet... Along with probably less training, I can see financially why they may go with the F18. Whatever they choose, I hope they stick with it, instead of pulling another Eurocopter fiasco.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:10 PM   #23
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Why not the F-35? I would think that would be the most logical choice and not the F18. Why buy more outdated aircraft? In 10 years, it's going to a different breed of planes not ones from the 80's
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:40 PM   #24
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As far as I see it, the F-35 has these main problems.
1. All of our existing support equipment will be obsolete.
2. All pilots, maintenance or other personnel working with the aircraft will need a new entirely revamped training program instead of some partial transfer of knowledge.
3. More expensive (but I'm not sure how much our "option" is to buy it in our existing agreement).
4. We don't necessarily need the stealth capability (but the F18 has made great improvement in that area as well).
5. It doesn't fit Canada's typical mission role (it's designed to replace the F16).
6. Doesn't carry as much payload.

Now, Boeing is apparently planning on releasing another fighter for 2024 and in the meantime releasing a few more improvements on the Super Hornet. Canada's plan was to upgrade out A/B's to C/D's and have them in service until 2020 I think. It may be worth the way to see what Boeing has up their sleeves, as the F18 is a proven workhorse.
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Old 07-24-2009, 07:28 AM   #25
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The F-22 has a massive advantage over the others in terms of speed with the ability to supercruise, stealth cross section, the F-22 looks like a sparrow on radar. Maneuverability while the Eurofighter is extremely maneuverable in terms of vectored thrust, the F-22 has the edge. Electronic suites, weapon systems. Basically everything.
The bad part is that you can bet that the sparrow moving at Mach 2 on your radar screen is an F-22.

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Old 07-24-2009, 08:25 AM   #26
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The bad part is that you can bet that the sparrow moving at Mach 2 on your radar screen is an F-22.

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Funny thing, but most military radars are configured to ignore signatures under a certain size and certain altitude. If they opened the filters every flock of birds would look like a squadron of F-22's, and you'd waste all of your missiles and probably valuable interceptor times investigating it.

Plus F-22's when they come in on a raid are taught to fly at tree top level and chop their throttles until they have visible range on their enemy targets, then they pop up, illuminate, fire and bore in.

Its an interesting problem for any radar intercept officer, since bird sized objects are filtered do you turn off the filters?
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:44 AM   #27
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I'd really like to get some concrete info on the claim of the 2 F-22's flying near Leduc at 100m. To my knowledge I don't believe the American's have even had the F-22 up at Cold Lake for Maple Flag.

If they were flying up from the States to Alaska they would definitely be a cruising altitude and taking sips of gas from a KC-10 along the way.

Then again perhaps they made a stop in YEG and you saw them showing off for the boys in the tower on their way out of there.
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:44 AM   #28
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No surprise that F22 and B2 topped the list.
wow. a jump from $350 million to $2.4 BILLION!!!

that is a big gap in price
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:47 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BlackArcher101 View Post
As far as I see it, the F-35 has these main problems.
1. All of our existing support equipment will be obsolete.
Its going to happen anyways, the F-18's aren't going to stay in the air forever, and while the new f-18 super hornets share the same airframe, the engines, avionics and other parts are pretty different, so no matter what you do, your going to revamp.

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2. All pilots, maintenance or other personnel working with the aircraft will need a new entirely revamped training program instead of some partial transfer of knowledge.
The new super hornets are different in performance flight avionices and maintenance, so its more then a partial transfer of knowledge. Its basically a new plane.

Some of the key differences are that the super hornet uses a completely new engine in the FE 414 (I think, going off of memory), its a whole new computer system, theres a new radar tracking and weapons system, the superhornet is about 25% larger as well.

To me, its irrelevant whether you go with th F-35 or the superhornet, there's going to be the same learning curve.

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3. More expensive (but I'm not sure how much our "option" is to buy it in our existing agreement).
It is more expensive, however from what I've read the price reduction due to our partnership puts the f-35 into the same ballpark as the Hornet dollar wise, but its a far more capable craft then the hornet.

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4. We don't necessarily need the stealth capability (but the F18 has made great improvement in that area as well).
While the Superhornet has done some nice things to reduce its radar signature it can never be compared to the F-35 which is pretty much second only to the F-22 in low observable technology.

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5. It doesn't fit Canada's typical mission role (it's designed to replace the F16).
The F-35 a and C varients, and I believe that Canada would probably look at the A varient which is the standard take off and landing can carry a pretty respectable 2 2000 pound bombs in its bay, it can also carry standoff weapons, anti armour missiles, cluster munitions, it is a multi-role fighter. While the CF-18 can carry far more varied weapons systems and has up to 9 hardpoints, I'm going to take the mission specific nature of the F-35 as a strike fighter and its vastly better survivability in getting over the battle ground against advanced ground to air and air to air systems.

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6. Doesn't carry as much payload.
I don't disagree, but the F-35 is a vastly superior strike vehicle because it has a better chance of getting to its release point, and it has better accuracy due to its superior weapons management system.

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Now, Boeing is apparently planning on releasing another fighter for 2024 and in the meantime releasing a few more improvements on the Super Hornet. Canada's plan was to upgrade out A/B's to C/D's and have them in service until 2020 I think. It may be worth the way to see what Boeing has up their sleeves, as the F18 is a proven workhorse.
The problem is that even with the upgrades happening to the avionics and engines, the CF-18's are built on worn airframes now, they're all developing microfractures and increased maintenance/flight times. If we wait to decide to 2024 to evaluate what Boeing is coming out with, chances are they based on how Canada works we won't see the any new fighters in line for about 15 years after that. To me it just doesn't make sense. The CF-18's were put into service in 1982, as it stands the airframes are 27 years old and even by 2024 they'll be nearly 45 years old. We don't even drive cars that are older then 10 years old. The CF-18 was a great leap forward for Canadian air combat, but they're end of life and its time to start moving forward on a replacement.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:00 AM   #30
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F-22 is cancelled anyway. They are going to produce a dozen more and then it's over.
Really?

Did anyone see the program of the LM vs the Boeing model. I cant believe its being scrapped, althought at more than 3X the cost of an F18 its no wonder.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:00 AM   #31
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That F22 picture is fantastic! I found the large version. Really cool stuff.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:07 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bigtime View Post
I'd really like to get some concrete info on the claim of the 2 F-22's flying near Leduc at 100m. To my knowledge I don't believe the American's have even had the F-22 up at Cold Lake for Maple Flag.

If they were flying up from the States to Alaska they would definitely be a cruising altitude and taking sips of gas from a KC-10 along the way.

Then again perhaps they made a stop in YEG and you saw them showing off for the boys in the tower on their way out of there.
I looked all over to try find some news of why they would have been there after it happened. One of the most amazing sites of my life, up there with the two F-18's doing dog fight exercises while I was at the top of Jungfraujoch in the Swiss Alps.

No clue what they were doing, but they made a short pass south, turned around, made another fairly low pass north, and headed off into the distance while gaining altitude to the north.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:42 AM   #33
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Envy, envy is what I'm feeling towards you hulkrogan!
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