Counting down the days until the end of General Motors - Page 6 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Azure · 03-22-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

That kind of is the argument. The bankers are more valuable then the trademens to society and 'the system' as a whole so they get the pass. Despite the fact that the bankers are the ones got us into this mess.

It seems foolish to prop up the very people that caused the system to fail. But, I guess they are just too valuable.

I agree.

Proper regulations need to be made.....'proper'....not just the government wanting to control everything to keep this from happening again.

Apparently nothing has changed though, and we're going to do another loop around into the same problem down the road.

Azure · 03-22-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by browna

Well, GM still sold 126K vehicles in Feb 2009. That's 30% more than Ford, and 15% or so more than Toyota in the same month...no one holds a gun to those 126K+ people every (and I am sure that Feb 2009 was probably the slowest month in the past couple decade) month.

This has been covered previously, with such large scale production, the Big 3 have the worst union deals of them all, and that factor alone ie 40% more production costs then the Japanese counterparts, are and have handcuffed the companies...with the scale so large, plant closures or retooling takes 6-12 months to work out details to make sure the unions are satisfied.
With large scale production the suppliers that supply Gm with parts will also go under...those same suppliers have a share or the other Big 3 and Japanese sales, and they'll suffer too.

There is no easy or simple fix to the mess.

I realize that.

Just don't agree with giving them billions upon billions just to prop them up.

GreenTeaFrapp · 03-22-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by browna

Well, GM still sold 126K vehicles in Feb 2009. That's 30% more than Ford, and 15% or so more than Toyota in the same month...no one holds a gun to those 126K+ people every (and I am sure that Feb 2009 was probably the slowest month in the past couple decade) month.

You think it's all people buying those vehicles? GM sells a lot of fleet vehicles to rental car agencies and police departments.

Azure · 03-22-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

You think it's all people buying those vehicles? GM sells a lot of fleet vehicles to rental car agencies and police departments.

And the government too, I'm sure.

They probably buy most of the SUVs that GM makes these days.

24 the TV Show does too.

PIMking · 03-22-2009, 02:58 PM

Toyota and Nissan are not union car manufactures. The workers dont make bad money but they dont have the worthless unions draggin them down.

ricosuave · 03-22-2009, 03:07 PM

"Why does my Mom want a second onion from you?"

Azure · 03-22-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIMking

Toyota and Nissan are not union car manufactures. The workers dont make bad money but they dont have the worthless unions draggin them down.

Unless I'm mistaken, they make pretty good money actually, but its based on how well the company does.

Instead of forcing through the union, both sides were able to come to an agreement.

Jedi Ninja · 03-22-2009, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

So the blue collar trademens are greedy and deserve to lose their jobs, but the white collar bankers get a pass?

Well, so far few autoworkers have lost their jobs and rather quite a few bankers are out of work.

Here is just one example: (135,000 financial jobs in London, UK)

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/.../Business/home

PIMking · 03-22-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Unless I'm mistaken, they make pretty good money actually, but its based on how well the company does.

Instead of forcing through the union, both sides were able to come to an agreement.

Yup!

I cant remember the exact number but it was a large amount when you buy one of the big 3 with the UAW it was somthing like 5 k of the cars price went just for the old fogie thats retired from the union.

I really dont understand why they need unions now. God forbid that they would have to work more than 8 hrs in one day with out getting OT..

Phanuthier · 03-22-2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Unless I'm mistaken, they make pretty good money actually, but its based on how well the company does.

Yup. I don't get the argument that GM sells a lot of cars, its about whether the business is profitable or not. GM is not, they've been losing money for a decade and long before this recession. Toyota has been making money for 63 consecutive years before this year.

As for banks, I think another thing worth mentioning is the banks do have a plan to pay it back. BoA says they could start paying back TARP funds right now but are keeping it given the turbulent times, and plan to start paying back TARP money towards the second half of this year. I believe Wells Fargo and JPM are self-sufficient and have not got any money (besides TARP?).

flylock shox · 03-22-2009, 06:12 PM

I'm waiting for GM to go under before I wade into the stock market. My theory is the collapse of arguably the most recognizable name in America will spin your average joes into a greater crisis of confidence than the collapse of nebulous investment banks. I still think the failure of this company is along the road to the bottom of the market, regardless of the modest bump of the last week.

Come on bankruptcy!

Azure · 03-22-2009, 06:15 PM

What I don't get is why people think all those people who work for GM will be unemployed all a sudden without any prospect of getting a job.

If GM is selling 126,000 cars per month, and they go bankrupt, someone HAS to fill that whole. Be that Ford, Toyota....any other car company, someone has to make 126,000 more cars.

In other words, a different company will either buy out GM, restructure everything, and start building cars....giving a lot of people work, or those people will be hired by Ford, Toyota, etc, etc.....to work for them to fill the demand for cars.

GreenTeaFrapp · 03-22-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

What I don't get is why people think all those people who work for GM will be unemployed all a sudden without any prospect of getting a job.

If GM is selling 126,000 cars per month, and they go bankrupt, someone HAS to fill that whole. Be that Ford, Toyota....any other car company, someone has to make 126,000 more cars.

In other words, a different company will either buy out GM, restructure everything, and start building cars....giving a lot of people work, or those people will be hired by Ford, Toyota, etc, etc.....to work for them to fill the demand for cars.

Companies don't want to explain that when they're asking for government cash. They'd prefer to push doomsday scenarios to frighten politicians into action.

An auto plant costs tons of money to build and outfit. It isn't going to just sit there collecting dust. At some price point someone is going to buy it. And if they buy it, they'll need workers. The places that should be worried are the ones with the worst auto plants.

But the other problem is that the skills needed to become an auto worker, as far as I can tell, aren't exactly the hardest to acquire. So long time auto workers could lose their position to some fresh on the floor. Or maybe no one steps into those former GM auto plants. Sure other manufacturers would step into fill the void in the marketplace left by GM but there's no guarantee that those out of work autoworkers would move, or be able to move, to where production has increased.

Azure · 03-22-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Companies don't want to explain that when they're asking for government cash. They'd prefer to push doomsday scenarios to frighten politicians into action.

An auto plant costs tons of money to build and outfit. It isn't going to just sit there collecting dust. At some price point someone is going to buy it. And if they buy it, they'll need workers. The places that should be worried are the ones with the worst auto plants.

But the other problem is that the skills needed to become an auto worker, as far as I can tell, aren't exactly the hardest to acquire. So long time auto workers could lose their position to some fresh on the floor. Or maybe no one steps into those former GM auto plants. Sure other manufacturers would step into fill the void in the marketplace left by GM but there's no guarantee that those out of work autoworkers would move, or be able to move, to where production has increased.

The way I see it, if Toyota and other car companies are making a decent penny, I can very much see some rich investors buying out GM, restructuring the company.....and just continue making cars.

Without the union of course. And the moronic business executives.

That is if the stupid government isn't hellbent on wasting even more money.

CrusaderPi · 03-22-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

But the other problem is that the skills needed to become an auto worker, as far as I can tell, aren't exactly the hardest to acquire. So long time auto workers could lose their position to some fresh on the floor. Or maybe no one steps into those former GM auto plants. Sure other manufacturers would step into fill the void in the marketplace left by GM but there's no guarantee that those out of work autoworkers would move, or be able to move, to where production has increased.

Typical. Blue collar work is easy. Anyone off the street can do it.

Phanuthier · 03-22-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Typical. Blue collar work is easy. Anyone off the street can do it.

What do you do for a living?

CrusaderPi · 03-22-2009, 08:58 PM

Would it shock you if I said it was something in the trades? Journeyman machinist.

Phanuthier · 03-22-2009, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Would it shock you if I said it was something in the trades? Journeyman machinist.

Not really. You just seem really bitter when the topic (up until GTP's post) really didn't seem to have anything to do with blue collar = useless, but you seem want to make a discussion of it. I just found it bizzare.

Azure · 03-22-2009, 09:14 PM

Assembly line work is relatively easy to do. I don't see why anyone should get offended when that is said.

CrusaderPi · 03-22-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Not really. You just seem really bitter when the topic (up until GTP's post) really didn't seem to have anything to do with blue collar = useless, but you seem want to make a discussion of it. I just found it bizzare.

I'm not entirely what upset me today about this thread, although I can say GTF's post really bugged me. I just have a general sense that people don't think the work skilled labor does is as valuable, and their jobs aren't as important as our white collar brethren.

I should note that I have no problem with any of the big 3 being allowed to fail.