should Ichiro Suzuki's Japanese stats

[habernac]

I think so. The guy is certianly no slouch. He's 31 and shows little sign of slowing down after his incredible season last year.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...000000000000000

[Resolute 14]

Depends on the mandate of the HOF. If it is MLB's HOF, or American baseball's HOF, then no. Japan is neither America nor MLB.

If it is meant to be a global HOF, then yes.

[habernac]

and if it is only a MLB Hall of Fame, wouldn't multiple batting titles, 10 years of batting .300 or better, etc, be merit for induction in the Hall (of course, he still has to accoplish all this as well)?

[JiriHrdina]

I would think that when its all said and done Ichiro will get in on his MLB credentials alone. Dude is piling up hits as fast as anyone in history. Of course, he's got a late start but that will be taken into consideration. He will get in for being one of the best players in the sport for an extended period of time, and for contributing to the globalization of the sport.

What I like about the MLB HOF is that it is the toughest to get into. The standards are set very high - something the Hockey HOF could learn from.

[habernac]

agreed, Jiri, too many "good" players in the HHOF. It should be reserved for the greats.

[Sylvanfan]

Well does anyone know off hand if a guy like Josh Gibson who was a star in the negro leagues in the 30's to 40's before Robinson broke the color barrier is in the hall? That would at least establish that the hall is not just for major league guys but for baseball players in the U.S. Of course than it needs to be determined if the hall is for international players. If so than one has to think theres been some pretty good players in Japan that no one knows of. Still one can argue that Ichiro is to Japanese players getting to the bigs what Jackie Robinson was in the 40's for the stars of the negro leagues. Although Ichiro isn't the first like Robinson was, he has come over and had some sustained success, and made the majors look a bit more seriously at that region of the globe for talent which has long been established.

[CaramonLS]

He is probably going to get in on his own merits.

When it is all said and done, chances are damned good he is going to have 10 gold gloves (He is one of the best defensive OFs in the game right now), 2000+ hits, probably a .320+ Batting average.

[habernac]

Josh Gibson is in the Hall, but the Negro leagues are most definitely considered stats wise for voting.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_a...gibson_josh.htm

[moon]

While not as sure as many here seem that Ichiro will get in on his MLB merits, I think he will be at the very least close and that he will then get a boost because of his success in Japan that will help get him in.

[Resolute 14]

Suzuki is one of the most overrated players of our time, and he is a media darling, so he has an excellent shot on his mlb tenure if he continues to hit a lot..

His entire game is based on being fast. He is a slap singles hitter with minimal patience and no power. And, as his prolonged slump continues, it becomes more and more obvious that when he isnt hitting the ball, he is completely useless on offense.

.176/.204/.235 so far in June. At least a patient hitter will walk and get on base. A power hitter would at least be moving runners over or driving them in. Even in a slump. Suzuki does nothing when he isnt hitting.

[CaramonLS]

Gotta disagree with that Snakeeye. Ichiro is a solid hitter, and although he wont hit for a ton of power, his .455 slg% is pretty damned decent, 24 doubles is nothing to scoff at.

You need speed at the top of your lineup, it just gives you so many options with what you can do.

The one thing I do not like is Ichiro playing a corner OF position. Waste of his defense for someone with a ton of range, and his throwing arm, should really be playing CF which is a more demanding OF position.

[moon]

I do agree with snakeye that Ichiro is overrated by many people. He is great at getting singles and perhaps doubles as well, but there are other aspects of his game that, for me, prevent him from being one of the top guys in the game like many seem to think he is.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Jun 16 2005, 06:32 PM
Gotta disagree with that Snakeeye. Ichiro is a solid hitter, and although he wont hit for a ton of power, his .455 slg% is pretty damned decent, 24 doubles is nothing to scoff at.

Suzuki's slg% is almost completely a function of his batting average. He only had that .455slg because his BA was .371. 24 doubles in 750PAs? For a guy with his speed?

Take Suzuki's Isolated Power (IsoP: SLG - BA):
2004: .083
2005: .115
three year: .103

And, one of my favorite guys to comapre him against. Shannon Stewart:
2004: .143
2005: .139
three year: .145

Three year averages, per 600ABs:
Suzuki - 24 doubles, 6 triples, 9 HRs
Stewart - 39 doubles, 3 triples, 13 HRs

In fact, on the raw statistics, Stewart has more doubles and home runs than Suzuki despite having 500 fewer at bats in the last three years.

Averages, L3Y:
Suzuki: .336/.385/.439 .824OPS
Stewart: .305/.371/.450 .821OPS


The only thing Suzuki does better is steal bases. 101/135 - 74.8% for Suzuki vs 24/35 - 68.6% (L3Y).

Honestly, I have to state that overall, Ichiro Suzuki does not provide you with much more offense than Shannon Stewart does. Is Stewart a future hall of famer? Is Stewart an MVP candidate?

[habernac]

I think the guy could do anything he wants. He's the lead off guy, so he hits to get on base. Put him fourth, I bet he'd "discover" he had some power. Terrific hand eye coordination and he does the job he's asked to do.

[moon]

I don't think that he could find much more or that he could find that he could take a walk when needed either.

[CaramonLS]

Umm ok, Apart from the fact Shannon Stewart has horrible speed.

The fact remains if you swipe 30 bags a season, chances are, thats 30 more times you are on 2B which is just as effective as a double.

Stewart is also a complete mess in the field.

You pay for the package, Ichiro is one of the very few leadoff men who has that total package of Speed, base stealing ability, average and fielding.

[Resolute 14]

Habernac - I've heard that before, and quite frankly, I dont buy it. I'm not talking about Suzuki becomming a 40 HR/140 RBI guy, but a man with his speed should be hitting a hell of a lot more than 24 doubles per 600AB. Especially when half of his games are in a park like Safeco.

Caramon - yes, Stewart isnt the fastest runner out there. That's exactly the point. Suzuki could run circles around Stewart, yet Stewart does virtually everything Suzuki does as a leadoff hitter.

As for your comment on basestealing, yes, that is a factor, but imo, base stealing is one of the most overrated aspects of the game.

However, lets try to incorporate base stealing into both players stats:
Assume a single + stolen base = a double (+1 base)
a caught stealing = an out instead of a single (-1 hit)

Using ESPN's three year stats, per 600ABs:

Suzuki: Avg 30 SB and 10CS per 600ABs.
Stewart: Avg 9 SB and 4CS per 600ABs.

Suzuki: .320/.372/.475 .847OPS
Stewart: .298/.368/.453 .821OPS

Of course, there is a fair bit of rounding error in that, but even then, the difference is barely 25 points of OPS. Once again, is that the difference between an often overlooked OF and an MVP and potential hall of famer?

And that doesnt even take into account that the leadoff hitter is only guaranteed to leadoff once per game. Both players bat with runners on about a third of the time, and in those cases, Stewarts extra power is far more likely to advance runners that extra base and drive them in than Suzuki is.