Fighting in Gaza Strip

[flip]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

This is a very emotion-charged debate (not just in this thread, but generally) and I think anyone who partakes in it needs to first educate themselves about the complex history of the region, particularly since 1955, and to then detach themselves from their own biases and attempt to understand both the history of the conflict and the perspectives of the various parties involved. If you can do those things I think it's inevitable that, no matter what position you ultimately take, you'll agree that there's no simple practical solution to this conflict.

If anyone is interested in obtaining a good idea of some of the perspectives involved in the middle east, I strongly recommend From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman.

Another book which might be of interest to those interested in a deeper understanding of US-Israeli relations, is the recently released The Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.

Good post.

I totally agree that anyone who tries to defend or blame either side is completely losing sight of their own bias. The ultimate cause/blame of this conflict is so entrenched and convoluted that both sides are to blame and a solution isn't likely to occur without a lot of work and a lot more violence.

[pepper24]

I blame Doc Brown and Marty McFly for only going back to 1955 instead of going back to 1947 and stopping the British mandate to create the State of Israel. It's been trouble ever since and the Zionist movement is more harm than good.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by jammies

No, war is governed by the Geneva Conventions and the Hague Conventions, which lay down rules by which signatories are obliged to abide. It is also restricted by various UN convenants and international law. Total war is not an option.

No war has ever been conducted that adhered completely to the Geneva and Hague Conventions. Even wars where both sides played lip service to the UN and two conventions both sides broke some rules.

In a situation where one side ignores international law, actively hides amongst civilians and targets civilians of the opposing side the other side can't be expected to follow all the rules themselves. You might see things different if you were the one whose family is being targeted.

[FlamesAddiction]

The one thing Israel has going for it, and why I think a lot of people in the West sympathize with them is because they are a relatively free country (relative to the ME in general). Even the Arab population in Israel proper (ie. not the WB or Gaza), despite not being legal "equals", have a higher standard of living than most Arabs in the Levant.

Some of Israel's harshest critics are Israelis themselves. Their government allows for dissent and while their government might not always act as moderates, many of the people take introspective approaches on what is going on. Contrast that with many of the surrounding countries where the approach has been more outward. Their governments and organizations like Hamas and Hezboullah, don't allow a lot of freedom and never use introspection to see what their role has been.

I'm not at all defending some of the harsh military tactics used by Israel, or their questionable negotiation tactics, but I can see why they are more likable to a lot of Westerners.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by pepper24

I blame Doc Brown and Marty McFly for only going back to 1955 instead of going back to 1947 and stopping the British mandate to create the State of Israel. It's been trouble ever since and the Zionist movement is more harm than good.

LOL!

Good catch! That should be 1945, the end of WWII and the beginning of the end of British involvement in the region. And I think only Doc Brown should be held accountable - Marty was just a kid dammit.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The one thing Israel has going for it, and why I think a lot of people in the West sympathize with them is because they are a relatively free country (relative to the ME in general). Even the Arab population in Israel proper (ie. not the WB or Gaza), despite not being legal "equals", have a higher standard of living than most Arabs in the Levant.

Some of Israel's harshest critics are Israelis themselves. Their government allows for dissent and while their government might not always act as moderates, many of the people take introspective approaches on what is going on. Contrast that with many of the surrounding countries where the approach has been more outward. Their governments and organizations like Hamas and Hezboullah, don't allow a lot of freedom and never use introspection to see what their role has been.

I'm not at all defending some of the harsh military tactics used by Israel, or their questionable negotiation tactics, but I can see why they are more likable to a lot of Westerners.

Agree with you there. Jordan is another country with somewhat of a democracy in the region though no where near Israel. Most of the other countries in the region are living in another century with inequality between men/women, no religious freedom and no freedom of speech.

[transplant99]

Really? So if Israel decided that firebombing the entire Gaza Strip and then sending in tanks to kill whoever was left was the thing to do, that response would be "legitimate and proportionate"?

If Hamas did so first in the spirit of breaking an existing cease-fire...then yes.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Agree with you there. Jordan is another country with somewhat of a democracy in the region though no where near Israel. Most of the other countries in the region are living in another century with inequality between men/women, no religious freedom and no freedom of speech.

Something I think that illustrates this is how the decently sized Arab minority that lives in Israel proper seems content to go about their lives and co-exist. You sometimes even have Arabs who try to move into Israel, but you rarely see emigration going from Israel to Arab countries. Most of the aggression from Arabs and other Muslims on Israel are from outside sources with Palestinians being used as pawns.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by driveway

Arguing the "who was where first" point when you live in North America is pretty stupid, man.

The interesting thing is that the Palestinians were not kicked out, those that are still there are members of Israeli society. So maybe it is a three way tie, christians, Jews and Muslims basically share the land. Now if the terrorists did not exist, none of this would be an issue.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

This is a very emotion-charged debate (not just in this thread, but generally) and I think anyone who partakes in it needs to first educate themselves about the complex history of the region, particularly since 1955

I completely disagree. The issue is rockets being fired by Hamas into Israel. This is bad. The argument is some people are defending them.

Of course there is a huge history that people can read all about, but the recent issues are SIMPLE. A terrorist group is launching rockets and Israel fired back, and as usual the world condemns Israel, and the world bascially said NOTHING during the previous 3000 rockets fired at Israel. And why did they say nothing? Likely because they are afraid of the Muslim sympathizers within their own borders and what damage they will cause. Just like they did with the cartoons and countless other situations.

For sure, go read. But that is not the current issue.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

If anyone is interested in obtaining a good idea of some of the perspectives involved in the middle east, I strongly recommend From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman.

Another book which might be of interest to those interested in a deeper understanding of US-Israeli relations, is the recently released The Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.

If you are a real fan of Hamas, then for sure read the Israel Lobby. The book is garbage. How about something not biased...

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

LOL!

Good catch! That should be 1945, the end of WWII and the beginning of the end of British involvement in the region. And I think only Doc Brown should be held accountable - Marty was just a kid dammit.

Did you guys both wear your bomb belts while typing? Why don't you move there since it is so much better than the west???

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Did you guys both wear your bomb belts while typing? Why don't you move there since it is so much better than the west???

Well that's a bit unnecessary man. The nice thing about CP from most other message boards is the usual absence of this kind of crap.

How does someone respond to that and further any point? "Why yes, I just got this bomb belt at Sears last weekend, they were on sale"

Argue with logic, not pointless attempts at slams

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

No! In war as in hockey you give them everything you got.

So you would have no issues with Iran dropping the big one on Israel given half the chance?

No problems with Sadam and his biological and chemical weapons?

Napalm ok too? Might as well throw in a few suicide bombers for good measure.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Did you guys both wear your bomb belts while typing? Why don't you move there since it is so much better than the west???

He was joking around. This post is fail.

[Nancy]

nmsg.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Did you guys both wear your bomb belts while typing? Why don't you move there since it is so much better than the west???

In addition to properly educating oneself about the history behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and attempting to take a step back from one's own emotions and biases in an attempt to understand the multiple perspectives at play, I suggest that anyone wishing to engage in a proper debate of the many issues arising from the conflict also avoid the consumption of large quantities of alcohol before doing so.

Just sayin...

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

In addition to properly educating oneself about the history behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and attempting to take a step back from one's own emotions and biases in an attempt to understand the multiple perspectives at play, I suggest that anyone wishing to engage in a proper debate of the many issues arising from the conflict also avoid the consumption of large quantities of alcohol before doing so.

Just sayin...

What does the Israeli - Palestinian history have ANYTHING to do with this? It is a cover for those that are willing to ignore Hamas shelling Israel with 3000 rockets DURING a ceasefire agreement and then launching 200 more when it ended....all the while celebrating the deaths, fear and destruction they created. Ignore that the fact that Israel did not respond until now. Ignoring that fact that Israel is NOT occupying Gaza. Ignoring the fact that Hamas does NOT represent the Palestinians. Ignoring the fact that 60 years ago mean jack in what people decide do now. It is an excuse.

Just sayin...

[HOZ]

“If you support democracy and peace for Palestinians and Israelis, Hamas has to go.”

"Canadians who support peace and human rights for all people must demand that Hamas give up its violence or give way to Palestinian leaders who truly want a state more than they want Jewish blood. Palestinians need an intifada against the tyranny of Hamas. When this happens, a Palestinian state at peace with Israel will be possible. That is a goal all Canadians should be in solidarity with."

It doesn't get clearer than that. It's from a succinct and saucy essay by my comrade Jonathon Narveyin today's Vancouver Province.

While everyone's been droning on about Israel's conduct in recent days, it's refreshing to see the focus properly turned on the culpability of Hamas in the sufferings of the Palestinians, and I see Michael Weiss has written a splendid and finely balanced essay setting out the complicity of Hamas in it all. Most pertinently, from my point of view - what with all the demented braying about Israeli "genocide" these days - Weiss points to this report (in the photo, with the brolly), one of my co-founders at the Canada-Afghanistan Solidarity Committee, last year from B'Tselem, the eagle-eyed observer of human rights violations in the Occupied Territories.

Read more from a lefty that truly gets it! Glavin

[HOZ]

Might as well give the haters their due. Maybe spellcheck would be in order?




Stupid extracts....DIE!!! DIE!!!!