have you ever had a dui, or been close?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by redforever

Yeah right, give anybody enough options and they just won't do the crime. And give them enough options and education and they will see the error of their ways and turn a new leaf. Like, I am sure all those poor sots need is a bit more coddling.... I mean, let's just stroke their ego a bit, they will come around. What a crock..... just more of that gobbledeegooop people get fed and actually end up believing.

There are already more than enough options and programs. The problem is, the drinkers don't like the options. They don't want the hassle of actually preplanning and they want the options customized to suit their drinking preferences... so if they choose to stay out until 4 in the morning drinking..... well then there bloody well be public transportation available at that hour to take them home.

And poor baby, actually have to be a DD and not have fun. I am sure there must be some self help group you can join to help you get over the disappointment of going out with the guys and having to stay sober.

Wow, even worse yet, you sometimes have to leave at midnight to catch the public transportation that is already available at that hour. Yup, a true sacrifice on your part.

I can't even imagine how terrible it must be for you if sometimes you actually have to stay home and miss out on some drinking fun with your buddies.

Oh and by the way, when you start planning more options for the drunk drivers, please include a tuck in service and a nite time story.... you know, so they can get a decent night's sleep and all that and wake up feeling all warm and fuzzy.

This post was a little over-dramatic, he was just stating that better transportation would help people drink more responisibly.

I think Ken0042 put it best. Yeah, we can just sit back and say the onus is completely on the drinkers to smarten up. But time and harsher punishments have proven that it is still prevalent in our society. So why not do everything to reduce drinking and driving?

This thread seems to be going in the typical Calgarypuck direction, with two extremes and no one meeting in the middle or giving an inch. Why can't we call for harsher punishments AND more preventative measures to help people drink easier ie: better late transportation, cheaper services to get you and your car home etc.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flameswin

This post was a little over-dramatic, he was just stating that better transportation would help people drink more responisibly.

I think Ken0042 put it best. Yeah, we can just sit back and say the onus is completely on the drinkers to smarten up. But time and harsher punishments have proven that it is still prevalent in our society. So why not do everything to reduce drinking and driving?

This thread seems to be going in the typical Calgarypuck direction, with two extremes and no one meeting in the middle or giving an inch. Why can't we call for harsher punishments AND more preventative measures to help people drink easier ie: better late transportation, cheaper services to get you and your car home etc.

Gee, you think?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by redforever

So why didn't you walk home?

And where have you been all of your life? Have you ever been in a rural community? My father's farm was 14 miles from town. You think that is within walking distance? If so, I hope you can answer my first question to you, why didn't you walk home?

Drinking and driving is a problem that is prevalent in all of society. Everyone should learn how to drink responsibly, no matter where they live or grow up.

But he's just throwing out ideas as to how we can curb drinking and driving, and you just keep responding with "well, people shouldn't drink and drive, it's simple". Well obviously it's a huge problem still, so Ken's just saying 'let's brainstorm some solutions', and you keep making him sound like he's an idiot for trying.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by redforever

Gee, you think?

Well thanks for responding to at least part of my post.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flameswin

But he's just throwing out ideas as to how we can curb drinking and driving, and you just keep responding with "well, people shouldn't drink and drive, it's simple". Well obviously it's a huge problem still, so Ken's just saying 'let's brainstorm some solutions', and you keep making him sound like he's an idiot for trying.

No, he is not an idiot for trying. But I am saying that he is looking through rose colored glasses if he thinks most drunk drivers give a damn.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by redforever

Yeah right, give anybody enough options and they just won't do the crime. And give them enough options and education and they will see the error of their ways and turn a new leaf. Like, I am sure all those poor sots need is a bit more coddling.... I mean, let's just stroke their ego a bit, they will come around. What a crock..... just more of that gobbledeegooop people get fed and actually end up believing.

There are already more than enough options and programs. The problem is, the drinkers don't like the options. They don't want the hassle of actually preplanning and they want the options customized to suit their drinking preferences... so if they choose to stay out until 4 in the morning drinking..... well then there bloody well be public transportation available at that hour to take them home.

And poor baby, actually have to be a DD and not have fun. I am sure there must be some self help group you can join to help you get over the disappointment of going out with the guys and having to stay sober.

Wow, even worse yet, you sometimes have to leave at midnight to catch the public transportation that is already available at that hour. Yup, a true sacrifice on your part.

I can't even imagine how terrible it must be for you if sometimes you actually have to stay home and miss out on some drinking fun with your buddies.

Oh and by the way, when you start planning more options for the drunk drivers, please include a tuck in service and a nite time story.... you know, so they can get a decent night's sleep and all that and wake up feeling all warm and fuzzy.

Wow. That's a pretty condescending retort to a good post. All the guy is saying is that most of the options involve a fair amount of planning. How do you take that and twist it into tuck in services and warm and fuzzy bullcrap?
Were you never young? Have you never drank? Were you always such a model citizen that has never found herself in an unforeseen situation?
Give it up. I know you're angry about what happened to your family. And I absolutely sympathize. So instead of railing against people that are coming up with options and solutions and belittling people that think it's ridiculous that in a city the size of Calgary, that there aren't viable alternatives, set your anger aside and see that he's just pointing out these deficiencies.

Your anger is clouding your judgement.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Wow. That's a pretty condescending retort to a good post. All the guy is saying is that most of the options involve a fair amount of planning. How do you take that and twist it into tuck in services and warm and fuzzy bullcrap?
Were you never young? Have you never drank? Were you always such a model citizen that has never found herself in an unforeseen situation?
Give it up. I know you're angry about what happened to your family. And I absolutely sympathize. So instead of railing against people that are coming up with options and solutions and belittling people that think it's ridiculous that in a city the size of Calgary, that there aren't viable alternatives, set your anger aside and see that he's just pointing out these deficiencies.

Your anger is clouding your judgement.

No, I am no longer angry about what happened to my daughter. I am just plain fed up that there are still people who drink and drive and try to give excuses for why they do so. Fact of the matter is, there is no excuse.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by redforever

No, I am no longer angry about what happened to my daughter. I am just plain fed up that there are still people who drink and drive and try to give excuses for why they do so. Fact of the matter is, there is no excuse.

Yeah. Hey. If you'd just relax a minute and read what you're replying to you'd see that nobody is giving excuses for drink driving. But alot of solutions are being considered. Apparently to the chagrin of you.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by flameswin

But he's just throwing out ideas as to how we can curb drinking and driving, and you just keep responding with "well, people shouldn't drink and drive, it's simple".

Yeah, very puzzling indeed. I'm not even excusing the act either, I swear that I'm speaking a different language then CaptainCrunch and redforever.

Me: I don't drink and drive. Prevention is what we should aim for, and bizzare punishments that are faulty will get challenged. So, the most logical reasoning is to find a solution to prevent DD and get them off the street.

CaptainCrunch: So you are calling me an evil ogre?

redforever: ... I don't even know what s/he is even writing. I guess that people shouldn't drink.

I don't even know how to respond to those two, they seem like random rants with no real objective to me. I don't know how they are getting to that conclusion; in the end, alot of talk but no real point. Or, I'm speaking a different language here.

Originally Posted by 4X4

Wow. That's a pretty condescending retort to a good post. All the guy is saying is that most of the options involve a fair amount of planning. How do you take that and twist it into tuck in services and warm and fuzzy bullcrap?

Were you never young? Have you never drank? Were you always such a model citizen that has never found herself in an unforeseen situation?

Pretty much, I'm starting to think CaptainCrunch and redforever have never gone to a bar with friends for a get together or a club. You don't really plan to leave at any exact time or anything. Half the time, you don't even know where you're going to end up. And hell, I'm not even a drunk driver, but... I dunno, whatever redforever said. Just odd.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by redforever

No, I am no longer angry about what happened to my daughter. I am just plain fed up that there are still people who drink and drive and try to give excuses for why they do so. Fact of the matter is, there is no excuse.

I really don't feel good about this post because I know this is a sensative subject for you, but from reading your posts this is what I'm seeing....

You make it sound like anger has nothing to do with your posts, but it seems to me that you are so angry towards drunk drivers that you don't even want to hear of solutions that help people get drunk and then get home easier. You just want the entire world to smarten and not drink and drive, which is obviously not going to happen. So other people are trying to brainstorm solutions, and you keep shooting them down and saying it's not worth it, when it obviously is.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I really don't feel good about this post because I know this is a sensative subject for you, but from reading your posts this is what I'm seeing....

You make it sound like anger has nothing to do with your posts, but it seems to me that you are so angry towards drunk drivers that you don't even want to hear of solutions that help people get drunk and then get home easier. You just want the entire world to smarten and not drink and drive, which is obviously not going to happen. So other people are trying to brainstorm solutions, and you keep shooting them down and saying it's not worth it, when it obviously is.

Since redforever responded to my post, I'm not a drunk driver. I just posted situation I know I am in (and many others) and why others might drink and drive. But again, I'm not a DD.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Since redforever responded to my post, I'm not a drunk driver. I just posted situation I know I am in (and many others) and why others might drink and drive. But again, I'm not a DD.

Just to clarify, I was reffering to her anger towrads drunk driving in general, I wasn't meaning to imply that the posters she's responding to are drunk drivers. Sorry for the confusion.

[4X4]

Anyway, aside from this little skirmish that's developing, I just want to explore some of the ideas being tabled to give would-be drunk drivers some alternatives...

The bus: why not a little all-night service on some of the peak days (read: nights)? People would be buying tickets. Maybe put a transit cop on the community shuttle just in case. Gotta be cheaper than deploying cops and fire trucks to accident scenes.

Taxis: Again... WTF? Why is taxi service so bloody pathetic in this city?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Yeah, very puzzling indeed. I'm not even excusing the act either, I swear that I'm speaking a different language then CaptainCrunch and redforever.

Me: I don't drink and drive. Prevention is what we should aim for, and bizzare punishments that are faulty will get challenged. So, the most logical reasoning is to find a solution to prevent DD and get them off the street.

CaptainCrunch: So you are calling me an evil ogre?

redforever: ... I don't even know what s/he is even writing. I guess that people shouldn't drink.

Where did I say that, people are more then welcome to drink, go for it, fill your boots, however people that drink have no excuse in getting behind the wheel of the car.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I don't even know how to respond to those two, they seem like random rants with no real objective to me. I don't know how they are getting to that conclusion; in the end, alot of talk but no real point. Or, I'm speaking a different language here.

I get it, its a random rant because I don't agree with your point of view. Perfect

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Pretty much, I'm starting to think CaptainCrunch and redforever have never gone to a bar with friends for a get together or a club. You don't really plan to leave at any exact time or anything. Half the time, you don't even know where you're going to end up. And hell, I'm not even a drunk driver, but... I dunno, whatever redforever said. Just odd.

Sure I have, I used to be a roaring drunk, however, we always had a designated driver, he had a responsibility, it might not be fun for him, but everyone took a turn.

I've arranged for rides from friends and family members when I needed a ride.

Bottom line, the argument that there are no cabs, and no buses are an argument about convenience and choices.

But I've said my piece.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Anyway, aside from this little skirmish that's developing, I just want to explore some of the ideas being tabled to give would-be drunk drivers some alternatives...

The bus: why not a little all-night service on some of the peak days (read: nights)? People would be buying tickets. Maybe put a transit cop on the community shuttle just in case. Gotta be cheaper than deploying cops and fire trucks to accident scenes.

The transit service has enough trouble finding drivers for the current hours, plus there would be a cost involved in extending hours.

Originally Posted by 4X4

Taxis: Again... WTF? Why is taxi service so bloody pathetic in this city?

There was an article in the paper last week where Cab drivers don't want to drive at night anymore because of the possibility of violence and dealing with drunks. I'm all for extending licenses, or forcing passengers to pay a premium to the drivers after 11:00. But the fault lies with the city and the taxi commission.

[jayswin]

Redforever: Just so I can solidify the fact that I'm not sympathizing with drunk driving, I'll throw this scenario out there....

option A) A guy arrives at a bar with his car because he got called out by his buddies while he was on his way home from work. They get drunk, and leave at 2am.

He's not thinking too clearly and gets told "transits done for the night". So he chances it and drives home, and kills someone you love on the way home.

option B) A guy arrives at a bar with his car because he got called out by his buddies while he was on his way home from work. They get drunk, and leave at 2am.

He's not thinking too clearly and gets told, don't worry man, the trains are running til 4 am now. So he hops on the train and goes home. Your loved one comes home safe.



I guess my point is, by your thinking, option (a) is more likely to happen, and that's where those of us that your snapping at coming from. We're NOT trying to sympathize, we're simply trying to come up with solutions that lead to less people being hurt or killed by drunk drivers, and that's what you should want too, right?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

^ I totally gave up on cabs along time ago. My options are:

- go to a bar close by (nice when I lived in Edmonton on Whyte Ave and in San Jose downtown, ty in Calgary)

- leaving a bar/club at midnight to catch the train, happens way too often and its pathetic

- have a DD (not as fun, sometimes harder to coordinate)

- not go to the bar at all

Lack of cabs have never caused me to DD, but I can see how it would for many and as this thread has proved, better transportation options does fix the problem.

Solutions are there but it doesn't suit the drinkers.

Public transportation is there but one doesn't want to stop drinking at midnight.

Being a designated driver is no fun and takes the joy out of the evening. Does one have to get drunk to have a good time?

Empty buses and trains running all over the city at 4 AM won't look good on the cities operating budget. Try justifying that to the taxpayers?

God forbid someone should have to stay home because they can't find a DD or someone to drive them home. Why not have a bunch of friends over and drink there and allow everyone to crash for the night.

Options are already available - problem is drinkers want to be able to have thier cake and eat it.

That's how i see it.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The transit service has enough trouble finding drivers for the current hours, plus there would be a cost involved in extending hours.

So why not look into those costs, if it could possibly save lives though?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The transit service has enough trouble finding drivers for the current hours, plus there would be a cost involved in extending hours.



There was an article in the paper last week where Cab drivers don't want to drive at night anymore because of the possibility of violence and dealing with drunks. I'm all for extending licenses, or forcing passengers to pay a premium to the drivers after 11:00. But the fault lies with the city and the taxi commission.

A cost greater than EMS, fire and police showing up to a car wrapped around a light standard? Ok. Maybe not the perfect comparison, but the division between you and red, vs me, phan and flameswin is getting a little weird. It's starting to sound like you've got a problem for every solution. And the problem invariably lies in harsher punishment.

Taxi drivers are afraid to drive at night? Lets get them some plexiglass dividers. Bus drivers are hard to find? Up the pay. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for it? Charge a premium for these services. I know I'll pay.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I guess my point is, by your thinking, option (a) is more likely to happen, and that's where those of us that your snapping at coming from. We're NOT trying to sympathize, we're simply trying to come up with solutions that lead to less people being hurt or killed by drunk drivers, and that's what you should want too, right?

Exactly, I don't see how this is a bad idea.

Originally Posted by 4X4

A cost greater than EMS, fire and police showing up to a car wrapped around a light standard? Ok. Maybe not the perfect comparison, but the division between you and red, vs me, phan and flameswin is getting a little weird. It's starting to sound like you've got a problem for every solution. And the problem invariably lies in harsher punishment.

Taxi drivers are afraid to drive at night? Lets get them some plexiglass dividers. Bus drivers are hard to find? Up the pay. Taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for it? Charge a premium for these services. I know I'll pay.

Pretty much my reply to the previous 4-5 posts, If we are worried about justifying costs and budgets, then why are (you) ready to blow 10x's the amount to prosecute bizzare penalties rather then prevent the issue all together? I thought the "other sides" opinion was to deal with drunk drivers and not be concerned about the cost? Or are we concerned with them only to try and put them in jail and not to fix the problem?