Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

http://www.windsorstar.com/opinion/l...798/story.html

Great column in today's Windsor Star re this whole mess.

I'm sick to my stomach to think I voted for Windsor West Dipper Brian Masse in October. I did so believing he could do little harm as an MP for a party that had no chance of gaining power. Little did I know I was voting for an organization that would sell its first-born to secure a place on the inside.

That's what we learned over the weekend with Layton's conference call admission that he struck a coalition deal with the Bloc prior to last week's fiscal update by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty which provided the pretext for the coup. Layton has sold his soul to a party whose sole purpose (apart from collecting juicy indexed pensions from the country they hate) is the destruction of Canada, and that's unforgivable.

Flaherty has backed off on some of his more contentious proposals, especially one which threatened taxpayer handouts to all parties, and promised economic stimulus in a Jan. 27 budget. So why wasn't that accepted? Why are the plotters still conspiring? Because this was never about economic stimulus. It was about the only stimulus that quickens the blood of self-serving politicians, that of becoming top dog and gaining a place, however slim, in the history books.

Why wouldn't the NDP and Liberals wait until they see the stimulus details in Flaherty's budget? Why wouldn't they wait until the inauguration of Barack Obama so Canada and the U.S. can tackle this meltdown in tandem? Why wouldn't they wait until there's clarity in the survival plans of the Big Three?

Why? Because these self-serving, screw-the-voter, Canada-stabbing opportunists think they can get away with it now. Plain and simple.

Brilliant!

[ernie]

I wonder what Alexa Mcdonough thinks of this? Pretty high profile NDPer that has remained silent and would likely give you the temperature of what the Atlantic NDPers are thinking.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by ernie

I don't recall the NDP having a policy convention and changing their platform in the last few weeks. I don't recall them soliciting the opinions of their membership on this.

The manly french-canadian panelist woman on CBC was saying last night that in the agreements for the coalition, the NDP had agreed to drop certain corporate tax schemes they had proposed, the Libs had dropped any idea of a carbon tax, and the Bloc had dropped any Quebec nationalism items, so that the three could find common ground. I don't know how reliable her information is or how she came by it, but she said that the compromises made were pretty significant.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Actually, since Dion campaigned on the promise that he would never form a Coalition with the NDP, the people who voted Liberal voted specifically against a coalition.

As for the people who voted for the Socialist Party or the Separatist Party... well... those parties have, historically, been ready to jump in either bed at a moment's notice, so I guess it can be argued that the people who voted for them voted in favour of bending over for anyone that wants to give them some power.

Well the whole point of a separatist party is to separate or to at least be disruptive. If one voted for the Bloc they must be very pleased at the current situation. Nothing could be more disruptive or divisive for the country.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Who knows though. I might run for election under my own party banner so I can get that sweet 1.95 per vote.

You have to get 5% of the vote to get the 1.95 per vote.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Peter12 tried to explain this in another thread. Harper made a deal with the NDP and Bloc to vote down the minority government, and since there were no glowing press conferences, handshakes and signed contracts, we can deduce either he was unsuccessful, or he didn't try for more.

When approaching the GG, they have to say all options at disposal... as they are not in a position to dictate to her.

They did not sign an agreement like this, nor did they claim they could run a unified government. It is not the same situation at all, notwithstanding the fact that when the CPCs made a deal to vote down the Government, the sitting government was under investigation for a multi-million dollar SCANDAL. Even Trudeau recognized you can not change the head of government without an electoral mandate.

That is not true at all, Harper was desperately trying to avoid an election in August and September of 2004. The Liberals were riding high in the polls, approaching 50%, the public had rebuked the Libs and gave them a slap on the wrist two months earlier and Harper was scared that Martin would let the government fall. Harper was mired around 22-24% in the polls, depending on the poll, having fallen between 6-8 points from election day. Harper was getting crushed in Ontario, about 60-30 in the polls and knew he was going to lose seats.

So he did the obvious, Harper approached the NDP and the Bloc about forming a coalition government. He approached the then GG about accepting the coalition government. Martin and the Libs realized that that government would have every right to govern Canada, and they put some water in their wine. They watered down the October 2004 Throne Speech and included ideas that could get a majority support.

This idea that that letter that Steve, Gilles and Jack wrote in 2004 was to bring down the government and not form a coalition government is just hogwash. They were actively attempting to put together a coalition government. The fact that:
a) Martin backed down, realized he was in a minority government and put a little water in his wine; and
b) The coalition never reached the level of stability and certainty that this one has
does not take away from the fact that all three parties were trying to do the exact same thing in 2004.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by calculoso

You have to get 5% of the vote to get the 1.95 per vote.

How many bucks would that be, I wonder. How many people voted in the last election, again?

Edit: Never mind, found it. There were 13,832,972 votes cast in the Oct 2008 election. Let's see... 5% is... 691,648.6 votes * $1.95 per vote = $1,348,714.77.

Anyone want to form a party with me?

[CaptainCrunch]

[quote=Thunderball;1541635]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't think Quebec is actually serious about ever leaving. They're a bunch of entitlement laced spoiled brats who want to suckle at Canada's hind tit and call us a bunch of pricks in the process.

They know the system and they play it well.

Oh I agree, why face economic uncertainty when you can play the separation card and get what you want every time.

Separation is the boogey man vote that everyone fears. I just wish that someone would call these guys on it.

"Oh, you really want to leave confederation do you. Ok, let me just sign these termination papers for all Quebec civil servants, right there you go. Oh and by the way you know that the St Lawrence is Canadian right, so we're going to require you to pay us to use it, if we can have the check on Wednesday that'dddd be great.

What you want to share our currency, and use Canadian Passports, but you want to be a separate country, so thats not going to happen. Oh and we'll send you a bill for your share of the national debt.

Oh wait a couple more things, the aboriginals up North called and they want to make it clear that they and that 1/3 of your land mass in the northern part of the province want to stay in Canada, so I certainly hope that you'll respect their wishes.

Oh and all of the federal buildings and land, you can buy them at a rate of $1/$1. Oh and the Military will be leaving and we expect you to buy those bases and training areas from us."

thats my fantasy.

[Nancy]

[quote=EddyBeers;1541621]

Originally Posted by Nancy

The BQ are playing the Libs and NDPs like fools. They are going along with this just to discredit the whole system, to demonstrate that Canada is a dysfunctional, loser nation. Fast forward a few months, and they will be voting against the coalition on a non-confidence motion to bring down the government again. Combine that with a tanking economy, the country will be a shambles, and they will have a strong case for independence. Shortly after that, they will announce a new separation vote.[/quote]

The Bloc is going to announce a new separation vote?? That is a new one, I never really heard of that before. I am assuming that the Prime Minister of Quebec, Jean Charest will just be powerless in the face of the legal right of the Bloc to call a separation vote??

Duh.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by octothorp

The manly french-canadian panelist woman on CBC was saying last night that in the agreements for the coalition, the NDP had agreed to drop certain corporate tax schemes they had proposed, the Libs had dropped any idea of a carbon tax, and the Bloc had dropped any Quebec nationalism items, so that the three could find common ground. I don't know how reliable her information is or how she came by it, but she said that the compromises made were pretty significant.

At least thats what they're saying, there's no benefit for the Bloc to join this group unless it promotes French interests heavilty. And wasn't part of their plan that was released yesterday a carbon tax system?

[ernie]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

They don't need to in order to agree not to pursue certain policies while part of the coalition.

Just like the Bloc can temporarily agree not to pursue its soverignty or the Conservatives can temporarily agree not to pursue parts of their platform if they feel the timing is wrong... you don't need a convention for that and parties do it all the time. In fact, one of the things I like about Harper is that he typically doesn't have a problem putting certain things on the back burner if they are unpopular.

Thanks I understand that. My point was simply that this is not what the memberships for either party had in mind when the platform was established and an election run on those things a few short weeks ago. If the NDP are in a coalition they sure as heck did not just say "okay do whatever you want Mr. Dion." They will have significant say on matters of the economy which IMO is scary.

This isn't massaging a piece of legislation to get house approval. that's what should have happened as the Tories presented something that wasn't liked and then pieces are removed or modified until it will pass. It's a melding of parties that have very little philisophical similarities. There was give and take sure, but I seriosuly doubt the NDP didn't get significant portions of what they wanted including their economic platform. And that scares people and pisses people off in the liberal membership. On the other hand the NDP I'm sure did give up some significant things and that will piss off a good chunk of their membership. These are two completely different parties that large chunks of both memberships that do not want to get into bed with the other. It's a pretty significant shift in both these parties philosophies that has been done without consultation of most of the party.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

This keeps getting brought up... We're talking about two completely different Governments. The Liberal Government at that time was corrupt, and riddled with scandal after scandal. So much so, that the elected PM stepped down in order to save his own ass from getting tossed out the door. He then appointed his replacement, without so much as a Liberal leadership race, never mind an election.

That Government NEEDED to be taken down. Their approval ratings were in the tank, and it was indeed one of lowest times for Canadians, in terms of Government satisfaction.

This time around, the people are happy with the Government. We just gave them a renewed mandate (minority, yes, but mandate nonetheless) and we just finished re-electing them. It has already been proven that the NDP and Bloq started planning this coalition two days after the last election.

This coalition is not about "what's best for Canada" or "getting rid of a corrupt, lame-duck Government"... it is about power for Layton, Duceppe, Dion and all of their political friends.


The two scenarios are on opposite sides of the spectrum.

Scandal after scandal? NEEDED to be taken down? Because the party you support was not in charge? So you wanted the Liberals out because of the multi-million dollar adscam.

One point that seems to be loss in all this is that we are in a Recession now. Billions of dollars have been lost in retirement accounts. More important than the Adscam and something Harper and his government didn't think was important enough to address UNTIL after the talk of the coalition.

[EddyBeers]

[quote=Nancy;1541650]

Originally Posted by Nancy

Duh.

LOL, Duh, I love it.....

The National Assembly has the right to put separation from Canada to a vote, only the National Assembly has that right.....but I guess in some sorta boogeyman Canada that has developed on CP that reality will be discarded and a new reality where any random person can hold a legally binding separation vote will take its place.....

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

How many bucks would that be, I wonder. How many people voted in the last election, again?

Edit: Never mind, found it. There were 13,832,972 votes cast in the Oct 2008 election. Let's see... 5% is... 691,648.6 votes * $1.95 per vote = $1,348,714.77.

Anyone want to form a party with me?

Someone needs to create the Canadian Monster Party.

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

At least thats what they're saying, there's no benefit for the Bloc to join this group unless it promotes French interests heavilty. And wasn't part of their plan that was released yesterday a carbon tax system?

Ya, I think I saw something about persuing a cap and trade system.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ernie

Thanks I understand that. My point was simply that this is not what the memberships for either party had in mind when the platform was established and an election run on those things a few short weeks ago. If the NDP are in a coalition they sure as heck did not just say "okay do whatever you want Mr. Dion." They will have significant say on matters of the economy which IMO is scary.
.

That's fine. My post was only in response to those who said Dion lied if he now decides he wants to form a coalition. If the the NDP backed down from their tax policies, then that means Dion didn't lie. The issue of whether it is fair to the people who voted for the NDP or Liberals is a different issue completely.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by ernie

Different things. No he didn't win the riding but that doesn't mean the province shouldn't be represented in some manner within the government. This was the method The Tories chose. A method that has been used before and a method that did garner a good amount of support from Quebec. Quenecers weren't dissatisfied with that arrangement at all even if they didn't elect him to be a sitting MP and representing them riding level interests.

But really it ultimately comes down to optics. This is a coalition that the media, and I think general public, is not being very supportive of. They haven't even taken power and there is public talk of handing out Senate seats to the leader of another party that happens to be a close friend to Dion.

I agree with you there.

I think every party is coming out of this smelling like pigs in a sty. If they would lift their heads up from the trough for a second, they may just realize that.

All I'm doing with pressing this is trying to point out that it isn't a left party or right party thing - they are ALL doing whatever trick they can to gain power, and there isn't really too much new. Just the same shenanigans in a much more serious context.

I can't support any of the parties. I want a new one that seems to care about doing something right, not trying to grasp or shore up their own power.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I can't support any of the parties. I want a new one that seems to care about doing something right, not trying to grasp or shore up their own power.

Well then let's do it! We got CaptainCrunch already, we can russle up some more.

Come on, man... that $1.95 per vote is calling our names!

Edit: It could be the Captain FanBobble Party! Come on, who wouldn't vote for that?!

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by ernie

Thanks I understand that. My point was simply that this is not what the memberships for either party had in mind when the platform was established and an election run on those things a few short weeks ago. If the NDP are in a coalition they sure as heck did not just say "okay do whatever you want Mr. Dion." They will have significant say on matters of the economy which IMO is scary.

This isn't massaging a piece of legislation to get house approval. that's what should have happened as the Tories presented something that wasn't liked and then pieces are removed or modified until it will pass. It's a melding of parties that have very little philisophical similarities. There was give and take sure, but I seriosuly doubt the NDP didn't get significant portions of what they wanted including their economic platform. And that scares people and pisses people off in the liberal membership. On the other hand the NDP I'm sure did give up some significant things and that will piss off a good chunk of their membership. These are two completely different parties that large chunks of both memberships that do not want to get into bed with the other. It's a pretty significant shift in both these parties philosophies that has been done without consultation of most of the party.

This kinda get me too. Party 1 has a platform and gains votes for it, Party 2 has a different one and gains votes for it. But then they get together and come out with bits and pieces from both. This melding of two policies isn't what the party members or electorate voted for, its just what the leaders of the parties are willing to allow each other to be in power. It doesn't help that the party whip will force all the members of the party in line, no matter what they or their constituents want.

[WhiteTom]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Well then let's do it! We got CaptainCrunch already, we can russle up some more.

Come on, man... that $1.95 per vote is calling our names!

Edit: It could be the Captain FanBobble Party! Come on, who wouldn't vote for that?!

I'm in! How quickly do I need to learn French?