Should Alberta separate?

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 2 2005, 04:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 2 2005, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Not at all. Alberta has been the biggest net contributor in terms of transfer of wealth. It's more than fair for this province to ask for something back.

And what the pro-separatists seem to want is to be above democracy and let money (not population) equal power.

Not a great base ideology for starting a new republic on this continent. [/b][/quote]
I'm not much a separatist, but I think you're way off.

People get worked up over the cost of being in confederation because they're disenchanted already - it's not the money that makes them that way.

Quebecers have been p*ssed for a generation or 3, and for the most recent generation anyway they've been a net recipient of federal funds.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Snakeeye+May 2 2005, 06:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snakeeye @ May 2 2005, 06:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A simple question, March and Winsor:

What has Canada contributed to Alberta's success?

Is our province and city great because of the hard work of the people of Canada, as represtented by Ottawa, or the people of Alberta?

[/b]

A simple answer, both.
Our province is rich because of hard working Albertans, A great Country and great resources.

What has Canada contributed to Alberta?
-For starters, how many of the people who have made Alberta great moved here from elsewhere in Canada to get this economy going. Tons. Even the beloved Stephen Harper who loves to scream about western alienation is from Toronto. Without Canada, the Conservatives wouldn't even have a leader.

-How many of the huge companies that run our province are Alberta only companies? Almost none, would these companies want to come or stay here if we wern't part of Canada. Be honest. How many thousands of jobs would be lost if Alberta seperated?

-How many luxeries do we enjoy as Canadians that allow us to concentrate on becoming such a great province? Please name me another country on this planet that would be better.

<!--QuoteBegin-HOZ

The Alberta gov't tightened their belt way back in 93-94 to cut costs to start paying the largest debt of any province in Canada. That debt was largely due to the Federal Liberal Party's raping of Alberta with the NEP. The NEP sucked the life out of this province. If you don't remember I suggest you talk to your parents or grandparents about what happened here. The economy was so bad that successive Alberta Gov't overspent in vain attempts to get the economy going.

Klein turned Alberta around with his cuts in programs and gov't waste. In the 90's Alberta was paying off it's debt, not just balancing the budget, without much income coming from the Oilpatch....as it was devastated. Witht he turnaround in oil prices the paying off the debt accelerated and eventually was complete. Trust me..the only thing we can thank the Federal Gov't for is releasing Alberta fromthe NEP.....Conservative Gov't that is.

Now a VERY corrupt, bigotted, lying over and over and over again, money stealing group of Liberals want to bring in a SUPERCHARGED version of the NEP. Trust me, when they do...not if, you'll be looking for a place to live in another province because there will be no jobs here.

Now, supposedly, the 'Liberal' Gov't of Canada is suppose to represent the entire country...protect us...help us. Yet we see them bend over backwards to give Ontario loopholes to drive GMC trucks through....yet surprisingly...Alberta looks to be set to be bent over the railing for 'another go'. Go figure. I can really understand why people don't want to continue to be serfs to Ontario and Quebec.[/quote]

LOL, You sound bitter.

I don't care if you hate the Liberal Party of Canada. Go ahead. At no point did I ask what is bad about the Libs.

My point is that Canada is the best country in the world. And wanting to seperate from Canada is alot more than saying no to a government you don't like. Seperating from Canada is seperating from everything that is Canadian, not just the government. It is an insult to every proud Canadian, everyone who has worked, fought or died to make this country what it is. Alberta would not be Alberta, without Canada.
Is there nothing about this Country that you like?
Seperating means you lose it all. Are you not proud of Canadians like Terry Fox, and Wayne Gretzky because they're not Albertan?
There are tons of great Canadians outside of Alberta, tons of great Canadian things outside of Alberta, and tons of Canadian achievements that weren't Albertan.
If you guys want to relinquish all that is Canadian because you don't like a political party (or democracy); than move.

But please please, someone who wants to seperate, tell me a country that is better than ours.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois+May 3 2005, 12:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bend it like Bourgeois @ May 3 2005, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

And what the pro-separatists seem to want is to be above democracy and let money (not population) equal power.

Not a great base ideology for starting a new republic on this continent.

I'm not much a separatist, but I think you're way off.

People get worked up over the cost of being in confederation because they're disenchanted already - it's not the money that makes them that way.

Quebecers have been p*ssed for a generation or 3, and for the most recent generation anyway they've been a net recipient of federal funds. [/b][/quote]
So Albertan separatism is in the same vein as Quebec's?

[HOZ]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+May 3 2005, 12:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ May 3 2005, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-tjinaz@May 2 2005, 01:59 PM
Hell in this senario...

I think the US would offer Statehood to BC, Alberta, and/or Sask. Think of the increased potential to win the Hockey gold for the US.

Especially Alberta and BC. The US would definitely play ball. They have no choice, through BC is the only viable land route to Alaska.

Oh they'd play ball alright, and you can be darn sure they'd be using an aluminum bat.

If Ottawa doesn't care about our concerns how high up the list do you think we'd be on the agenda in Washington? [/b][/quote]
Glad to see we don't have a clue to what the US gov't is all about. Alberta would have the SAME representation in the House of Congress and Senate as all the other 50 states. 2 and 2. And therefore far more ability to protect ourselves. The checks and balances in the US FAR exceeds our banana republic wannabe system

Where Alberta would lose out is electing the President. The electoral colleges take into account population. I am sure we could get use to it. We have only had no power since......Confederation

[HOZ]

QUOTE (HOZ)

The Alberta gov't tightened their belt way back in 93-94 to cut costs to start paying the largest debt of any province in Canada. That debt was largely due to the Federal Liberal Party's raping of Alberta with the NEP. The NEP sucked the life out of this province. If you don't remember I suggest you talk to your parents or grandparents about what happened here. The economy was so bad that successive Alberta Gov't overspent in vain attempts to get the economy going.

Klein turned Alberta around with his cuts in programs and gov't waste. In the 90's Alberta was paying off it's debt, not just balancing the budget, without much income coming from the Oilpatch....as it was devastated. Witht he turnaround in oil prices the paying off the debt accelerated and eventually was complete. Trust me..the only thing we can thank the Federal Gov't for is releasing Alberta fromthe NEP.....Conservative Gov't that is.

Now a VERY corrupt, bigotted, lying over and over and over again, money stealing group of Liberals want to bring in a SUPERCHARGED version of the NEP. Trust me, when they do...not if, you'll be looking for a place to live in another province because there will be no jobs here.

Now, supposedly, the 'Liberal' Gov't of Canada is suppose to represent the entire country...protect us...help us. Yet we see them bend over backwards to give Ontario loopholes to drive GMC trucks through....yet surprisingly...Alberta looks to be set to be bent over the railing for 'another go'. Go figure. I can really understand why people don't want to continue to be serfs to Ontario and Quebec.



LOL, You sound bitter.

I don't care if you hate the Liberal Party of Canada. Go ahead. At no point did I ask what is bad about the Libs.

My point is that Canada is the best country in the world. And wanting to seperate from Canada is alot more than saying no to a government you don't like. Seperating from Canada is seperating from everything that is Canadian, not just the government. It is an insult to every proud Canadian, everyone who has worked, fought or died to make this country what it is. Alberta would not be Alberta, without Canada.
Is there nothing about this Country that you like?
Seperating means you lose it all. Are you not proud of Canadians like Terry Fox, and Wayne Gretzky because they're not Albertan?
There are tons of great Canadians outside of Alberta, tons of great Canadian things outside of Alberta, and tons of Canadian achievements that weren't Albertan.
If you guys want to relinquish all that is Canadian because you don't like a political party (or democracy); than move.

But please please, someone who wants to seperate, tell me a country that is better than ours.


Didn't read what I wrote did you? Maybe you should put down your free Canadian flag from Sheila Copps for a second or two. At no time did I say I was in favor of separation. I just understand why people would want to.

Bitter? Frustrated would be the better word. Frustrated at how mediocre my country has become. Frustrated that Canada is no better than a second rate banana republic. Frustrated with, with all the "potential" we have, being nothing but an after thought in the world. Frustrated that Australia, with half our population has more, respect, more recognition and more power worldwide than we do(You can replace Austalia with numerous other countries). Frustrated that when someone DARES to criticise Canada we get the response we get from you..."Why don't you move?".

BTW: Gretzky is an American. Did it ever enter your head that when ever a Canuck become a success, he or she will move away? And more than not take on a different nationality.

BBTW: Can you name anything in the last 10 years, other than a hockey gold medal, that Canada has done that would make you REALLY proud to be an Canuck? It has been a very sad 2 decades!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by HOZ+May 2 2005, 10:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ @ May 2 2005, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Oh they'd play ball alright, and you can be darn sure they'd be using an aluminum bat.

If Ottawa doesn't care about our concerns how high up the list do you think we'd be on the agenda in Washington?

Glad to see we don't have a clue to what the US gov't is all about. Alberta would have the SAME representation in the House of Congress and Senate as all the other 50 states. 2 and 2. And therefore far more ability to protect ourselves. The checks and balances in the US FAR exceeds our banana republic wannabe system

Where Alberta would lose out is electing the President. The electoral colleges take into account population. I am sure we could get use to it. We have only had no power since......Confederation [/b][/quote]
Damn, you are right. Of course they would immediately give Alberta all the powers of statehood and wouldn't take advantage of our rather weak position as an undefended, desperate, powerless, landlocked, ally-less country.

A transition from province to state would obviously be a seamless and happy transition. Basically it would be just a case of changing the flags and then the Yanks would treat us just like a chillier version Texas. They might even elect King Ralph!

[HOZ]

Which would I choose?

The smooth road via the "non-agenda" (ie. Kyoto weilding) Liberal (Banana republic) government of Canada...


or the bumpy road (ie.American agenda to steal our resources) to becoming a state?

Hmmmmm.

BTW: Exactly how different is Alberta, defensewise, with Canada?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by HOZ+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bitter? Frustrated would be the better word. Frustrated at how mediocre my country has become. Frustrated that Canada is no better than a second rate banana republic. Frustrated with, with all the "potential" we have, being nothing but an after thought in the world. Frustrated that Australia, with half our population has more, respect, more recognition and more power worldwide than we do(You can replace Austalia with numerous other countries). [/b]

In what sense are we an afterthought. We are a G7 nation that has alot of respect from the international community. How do you define respect, recognition and power?
These things don't always go hand in hand. For example The US may be the most powerful nation, but they sure aren't the most respected.
It's a matter of priorities and most Canadians don't want to play a large tuff guy role. Sometimes less is better. I am personally quite proud of the role Canada plays internationaly.

Originally posted by HOZ+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Frustrated that when someone DARES to criticise Canada we get the response we get from you..."Why don't you move?". [/b]

I only say why don't you move to people who talk of seperation, because at the end of the day that is what they're doing anyway. They're leaving the country they're in to live in another. Why not just pick from the hundreads out there instead of trying to break off pieces of ours.

If you want to criticise aspects of Canada or its government I'm in complete support of you doing that. That's our democratic right and responsability and I'm glad to see people use it. If I didn't feel that way I wouldn't be on this post arguing and criticising as we are.

<!--QuoteBegin-HOZ@
BTW: Gretzky is an American. Did it ever enter your head that when ever a Canuck become a success, he or she will move away? And more than not take on a different nationality.[/quote]
I'm not gonna argue about Gretzky being a sell out or not. It doesn't really matter. The point I was trying to make is that there are alot of things that we as Canadians from coast to coast all identify with and share in common. If we talk of seperation we are talking about all of these things, not just politics. I think people on both sides of the political spectrum should stop always trying to throw sh*t at each other and maybe try and see what we all have in common. If people actually do want moderation and less alienation they need to do more to stop alieanating themselves through aggressive name calling and threats of seperation.

If you want someone to see your side of the story, do you?
a)wage a war of words and threats to p*ss them off
or
b)try to be civil and convince them of the merit of your view

personally I think option B would help rid of some regionalism that we experience in Canada. But maybe you like option A.

<!--QuoteBegin-HOZ
BBTW: Can you name anything in the last 10 years, other than a hockey gold medal, that Canada has done that would make you REALLY proud to be an Canuck? It has been a very sad 2 decades![/quote]
-I'm proud of the cooperation we have showed with the global body
-I was very very proud when we said no to goin into Iraq
-I'm proud that we are willing to put some effort into saving the environment (though not enough)
-I am proud of the humanitarian efforts we take part in worldwide
-I'm proud of the strong economic growth Canada is having right now
-Canada having its first female Premier and Prime Minister
-And like I said before; sometimes less is more. I'm proud of alot of the things we didn't do or don't have to do. I'm proud of the general standard of living that I have as a Canadian and that I enjoy so many luxeries because of my "Banana Republic".

[shoestring]

Right after I dam up the water and don't allow Sask or Man to get any.
Then I am building a jetson's flight path to Montana and establishing some kind of relationship.
Then I am kicking out the downtrawden until BC joins us.
Then we become a world sea power and everybody joins us.

[tjinaz]

Kind of an odd source but an interesting article none the less

http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/...es/2005427.asp

A summary

Here's a thumbnail sketch of that analysis: Say Quebec does become a separate European-style nation-state -- a "people" with cultural, linguistic, religious and historical identity (never mind the objections of Mohawk and Cree Indians living in Quebec). Quebec has the people and resources to make a go of it, though the economic price for its egotism will be stiff. British Columbia also has "nation-state" assets: Access to the sea, strong industrial base, raw materials and an educated population.

Oil-producing Alberta might join the United States and instantly find common political ground with Alaska, Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma. Canada's struggling Atlantic provinces might find statehood economically attractive and extend the New England coastline. A rump Canada consisting of "Greater Ontario" -- with remaining provinces as appendages -- might keep the maple-leaf flag aloft. As for poor, isolated Newfoundland: Would Great Britain like to reacquire a North American colony?

[Flame On]

If it's not about greed and money, how about we let the feds extract all the oil and then give you your Alberta?
Would you still want it that way?
The reason I know it is about money is that seperaT**s cry murder about being represented but when I ask what provisions would be made in Altopia for people who are like minded here, I get told that "as long as their voices are heard" or something. How's that different from what those who are complaining are supposedly experiencing?

[Agamemnon]

I think some people here like to use the phrase 'no voice' in the federal govt., when what they really mean is; 'not enough votes'.

Seriously, those of you who believe the West has 'no voice' had better give your head a shake. Turn on the news. Harper is plastered all over every newspaper and television in town (Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary), and while we conservative-haters paint him an arsehole, the 'media' in general, as far as I can tell, has treated him as fairly or moreso than Martin.

I'm sure the Liberals could complain that they have no voice out here? Our media is hard-core anti-Liberal, have you guys checked out the Sun in the past few months? The front-page-rhetoric is brutal, its a political tabloid rag.

We_are_so_spoiled. At least I get to reap the benefits!

I'm surprised you pro-Separatists haven't brought up Albertan citizenship issues. Who gets to be a citizen of the New Alberta? The 100,000's of Newfies who moved out here? 100,000's of Sask's? Does it matter to us that 'Albertans' are probably close to outnumbered? This could be the reason the polls are so low for Separatism, because half the people interviewed aren't Albertan.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by HOZ@May 3 2005, 05:58 AM
Which would I choose?

The smooth road via the "non-agenda" (ie. Kyoto weilding) Liberal (Banana republic) government of Canada...


or the bumpy road (ie.American agenda to steal our resources) to becoming a state?

Hmmmmm.

BTW: Exactly how different is Alberta, defensewise, with Canada?

... part of NATO. That's been seen as a large feather in some state's caps... like us.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 2 2005, 08:42 PM

So Albertan separatism is in the same vein as Quebec's?

At a basic level, yes. Ultimately both groups of people see themselves as a different group than the rest of Canada, whose dreams and ambitions are not being - and cannot be - realized within the structure called Canada.

The 'cannot' part is I think where you become a separatist. Not many Albertans are there yet I don't think.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois+May 3 2005, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bend it like Bourgeois @ May 3 2005, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@May 2 2005, 08:42 PM

So Albertan separatism is in the same vein as Quebec's?

At a basic level, yes. Ultimately both groups of people see themselves as a different group than the rest of Canada, whose dreams and ambitions are not being - and cannot be - realized within the structure called Canada.

The 'cannot' part is I think where you become a separatist. Not many Albertans are there yet I don't think. [/b][/quote]
I think this is BS.

As I said above, many, many people in this province aren't even 'Albertan'.

I do _not_ see our culture as _fundamentally_ different than Sask, BC, NWT, or even Ontario. We wear the same clothes, speak the same language, watch the same TV, and political parties accross Canada actually get decent representation in most regions (Conservatives DO get votes in Ontario, Liberals DO get votes in Alberta).

Quebec is a different story. They speak a different language (and due to that) watch different TV, and have a history of desperately maintaining their truly unique identity.

Alberta Separatism does not = Quebec Separatism.

You can't base Separation on Greed, it will never fly.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by HOZ@May 3 2005, 04:38 AM
BBTW: Can you name anything in the last 10 years, other than a hockey gold medal, that Canada has done that would make you REALLY proud to be an Canuck? It has been a very sad 2 decades!

I'm proud to be a Canadian everytime I venture south into the United States.

Plenty to be proud of IMO, Winsor Pilates listed some good points.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 2 2005, 11:13 PM
The biggest problem with our place in Canada is that we have no voice despite having 10% of the nations population. Combined, the West has virtually no voice despite making up a third of the nations population.

I'd suggest that's a problem of perception.

We certainly have more than "no voice".

It sounds like you're upset we don't have the biggest say, but we shouldn't in a democracy.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+May 3 2005, 08:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ May 3 2005, 08:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

At a basic level, yes. Ultimately both groups of people see themselves as a different group than the rest of Canada, whose dreams and ambitions are not being - and cannot be - realized within the structure called Canada.

The 'cannot' part is I think where you become a separatist. Not many Albertans are there yet I don't think.

I think this is BS.

As I said above, many, many people in this province aren't even 'Albertan'.

I do _not_ see our culture as _fundamentally_ different than Sask, BC, NWT, or even Ontario. We wear the same clothes, speak the same language, watch the same TV, and political parties accross Canada actually get decent representation in most regions (Conservatives DO get votes in Ontario, Liberals DO get votes in Alberta).

Quebec is a different story. They speak a different language (and due to that) watch different TV, and have a history of desperately maintaining their truly unique identity.

Alberta Separatism does not = Quebec Separatism.

You can't base Separation on Greed, it will never fly. [/b][/quote]
The greed argument is a pretty weak statement for a pretty smart guy.

For the sake of argument, I'll lump myself into the class you're calling 'greedy'.

I don't like the fact that 35% of my labours go to Ottawa, where they primarily spend it on things other than Health, Education, Welfare, Job training, and the things that I would consider to be important government functions.

I don't like the fact that our government literally lost a billion dollars or so, wasted a few billion more by their own admission, and dipped their own hand in the cookie jar for a few hundred million more simply because they could. And I really don't like the fact that most canadians don't care.

To write that off as greed isn't even arrogant, it's just plain lazy.

But, I'm not a seperatist, just disenchanted.

To become a separatist I'd have to conclude that my priorities will never match Ottawa's. That in fact the rest of canada isn't just out of step with what I want, but marching in an entirely different direction. In short, that I'm fundamentally different than the rest of Canada.

Your argument about clothes and language and TV could be said about Canada vs. the US. Are Canadians not different than Americans? Of course they are. So maybe there's something deeper than that. If you want to understand where the separatists sentiment comes from, start there. If you want to prove to the separatists that they are right - that in fact they are fundamentally different, keep dismissing the notion as 'greed'.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois+May 3 2005, 05:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bend it like Bourgeois @ May 3 2005, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I think this is BS.

As I said above, many, many people in this province aren't even 'Albertan'.

I do _not_ see our culture as _fundamentally_ different than Sask, BC, NWT, or even Ontario. We wear the same clothes, speak the same language, watch the same TV, and political parties accross Canada actually get decent representation in most regions (Conservatives DO get votes in Ontario, Liberals DO get votes in Alberta).

Quebec is a different story. They speak a different language (and due to that) watch different TV, and have a history of desperately maintaining their truly unique identity.

Alberta Separatism does not = Quebec Separatism.

You can't base Separation on Greed, it will never fly.

The greed argument is a pretty weak statement for a pretty smart guy.

For the sake of argument, I'll lump myself into the class you're calling 'greedy'.

I don't like the fact that 35% of my labours go to Ottawa, where they primarily spend it on things other than Health, Education, Welfare, Job training, and the things that I would consider to be important government functions.

I don't like the fact that our government literally lost a billion dollars or so, wasted a few billion more by their own admission, and dipped their own hand in the cookie jar for a few hundred million more simply because they could. And I really don't like the fact that most canadians don't care.

To write that off as greed isn't even arrogant, it's just plain lazy.

But, I'm not a seperatist, just disenchanted.

To become a separatist I'd have to conclude that my priorities will never match Ottawa's. That in fact the rest of canada isn't just out of step with what I want, but marching in an entirely different direction. In short, that I'm fundamentally different than the rest of Canada.

Your argument about clothes and language and TV could be said about Canada vs. the US. Are Canadians not different than Americans? Of course they are. So maybe there's something deeper than that. If you want to understand where the separatists sentiment comes from, start there. If you want to prove to the separatists that they are right - that in fact they are fundamentally different, keep dismissing the notion as 'greed'. [/b][/quote]
Well, since you've gone ahead and re-stated your reasons for separation (or disenchantment, or whatever) along the lines of 'its my oil, i'm keeping all of it', I don't have much choice but to revert to simple greed statements. 'Labours' is not a euphamism for 'oil'. A government without waste is utopian thinking. Get used to it, it happens everywhere, all the time, and when they get caught, its time for a change in parties.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 3 2005, 10:22 AM

Well, since you've gone ahead and re-stated your reasons for separation (or disenchantment, or whatever) along the lines of 'its my oil, i'm keeping all of it', I don't have much choice but to revert to simple greed statements. 'Labours' is not a euphamism for 'oil'. A government without waste is utopian thinking. Get used to it, it happens everywhere, all the time, and when they get caught, its time for a change in parties.

From that you get 'it's my oil, I'm keeping all of it'?

Keep up the good work kid.