Peanut Butter Allergies AGAIN [Split from Mentally Challenged Thread]

[jammies]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

But I've never met anyone around my age or older than me who's been stupidly allergic to them. What's the deal?

Many allergies fade away as you become adult. For example, I used to be very allergic to cats, but now I pretty well have to huff a kitten before I start sneezing.

Well, plus plenty of kids that are "diagnosed" with allergies are self or parent-diagnosed, and forget about their "allergies" when they discover beer is more fun than hypochondria.

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by jammies

I pretty well have to huff a kitten before I start sneezing.

LOL - this just made my day - thanks

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Chump

I don't know I thought he made some valid points. Let's take cars at school for example. Around elementary schools the speed limit is reduced to 30 km/hr and before and after school the older kids are asked to be patrol- men and stop cars to let the other kids cross the street. These seem like pretty reasonable restrictions to help keep kids safe, something similar to having a peanut free zone at a school and educating all the kids about the dangers of peanut allergies. But what if someone does not follow the speed limit or a kid runs directly in front of a car. A kid could still die. So should we not ban all cars from driving on the streets a two block radius around the school during school hours. Sure this would inconvenience a lot of people but it could save a kids life so why would we risk doing otherwise. Anyone who does not agree with this ban of cars around schools is ignorant and/or has no morals.

If a kid runs directly in front of my car in a school zone i should be paying attention enough to slam on the brakes if i'm going the school zone limit. If not I am likely held liable. As long as your okay being held liable for the injury of a kid because your such a peanut advocate than that's ok by me.

[Flamesmom]

Let me get on my soapbox for a minute and clear up a few things.
My son, who's now 8yrs old, is severely allergic to ALL types of nuts.

When he was 10mths old, I was at work, he was spending the day with my sister and my mom. My mom was to take him to our pediatric dentist that day for a checkup. He was hanging out with my sisters kids, and my sister made herself some peanut butter toast for breakfast. My nephew (who's 6mths older than my son) found it hilarious to eat his Mom's toast every time she made some more. My son decided he wanted in on the fun. So, they all ate peanut butter toast.

About 20mins later, my mom put my son in the car, and drove him to the dentist. While in the waiting room (now about 30mins after ingestion), she found him to be quite cranky, and it was getting worse. She noticed a red bump on his cheek and thought perhaps he'd gotten bit by a mosquito. But then there was more and more of these red bumps appearing. He was also getting VERY upset, screaming, crying, etc. One of the dental assistants, who'd been in pediatrics for 20yrs, came out to see what was the matter. She noticed RIGHT away something was wrong (thank goodness for HER experience), and took him in the back for a moment, reassuring my Mom (so as to not scare/upset her). She checked on him, and realized he was struggling to breathe, and could tell his throat was rapidly closing. By this time, his lips were swollen, as were his eyes, and he was COVERED from head to toe in hives.

She went out to the waiting room and told my mother that they needed to take him across the hall to the DR's office, as he was having some kind of an allergic reaction. That DR's office was closed for lunch. Upstairs two floors, and not only did they find an OPEN Dr's office, but one that had epinephrine on site, in a container they could DOSE for my son's weight. (NO dr's offices have narcotics on site anymore!!). If this DR hadn't had epinephrine on site, and DOSABLE at that, my son would be dead. Yes, dead. So, he was given a shot of epinephrine and a dose of benedryl, and 911 was called. At this point, my mother called me at work to say they thought Nathan was having an allergic reaction to peanuts, and he was going by ambulance to the Peter Lougheed Hospital (closest to where they were) as it would take too long to get to the Children's.

I went flying out of my office and drove to the hospital so quickly, I beat the ambulance there by about 5mins. When they finally arrived, I snatched my baby out of the arms of an EMT, and he was admitted for a dose of medicine that would help counteract the allergic response. We were told of the severe reaction, FULL anaphylaxis on his FIRST exposure... would've killed him if it weren't for that dental assistant acting so fast, and the DR having epinephrine on site.

Now... let's fast forward. I have friends who's children are allergic to walnuts, or almonds, or even just peanuts. Their first reactions were a tummy ache, or nausea, or maybe their kid got 3 or 4 hives and threw up. But my kid?? FULL anaphylaxis, and a brush with death. I am thankful EVERYDAY that he's here, knowing how close I came to losing my son.
We became huge advocates for him. I ordered every kids book about nut allergies, we have epi pens for him... 2 at school, and 2 at home (which travel with us when we leave the house). He is now 8yrs old and has a MUCH better understanding of his allergy... however this wasn't always the case.

In preschool, I had a couple people FURIOUS because the preschool said "NO NUTS". I took it upon myself to make a newsletter to be sent home to each parent, that explained my son's allergy... that often times, subsequent reactions are worse than the preceeding one, and knowing that the FIRST reaction for my son was SO SO bad... we weren't willing to play with his life. That the smallest amount of nut residue from the hand of a child who didn't wash up after peanut butter sandwiches for lunch, wiped on a table at school, touched by MY child, and fingers put into his mouth (and don't get on me about this one, ALL kids do this when they're 4)... could spell DEATH for my kid in as quickly as 3 minutes. I also included a HUGE HUGE list of suggestions for preschool snacks. Those angry parents thanked me for explaining things to them, and providing alternate suggestions for snacks. We were thankful every day he came home from school safe.

In grade 1, at my son's old school, the principal thought it wise to have children with severe allergies wear their epi pens on their person (in a belt pack). HA then add in the fact my son has ADHD - primarily hyperactive/*impulsive*, and then you get a phone call saying "Your son injected himself with his epi pen in his finger, and it's cold and turning blue, can you come and pick him up please?".

Yeah... laugh it up, I've been there.

My son is 8yrs old now and has literally been to maybe a dozen birthday parties in his LIFE. Why? Because most people don't want the hassle of finding ways for my boy to be safe, or understand how EASY it is to just say "he can't have the cake, bring something else". And yet, the dozen who have??? I'll enquire about their cake/snacks, etc. I *ALWAYS* offer to send something else for him. 99% of the time, the cake comes from a bakery (NONE of which can guarantee a nut free cake, so we don't eat anything from bakeries)... SO i make a cupcake and put icing and sprinkles on it, and send that for Nathan to enjoy instead. Once, the mother of the boy who was having a party, offered to buy my son Chapman's (nut free!) ice cream, so he could enjoy a treat too. Once, the mother replaced all her baking supplies to ensure my son's COMPLETE inclusion. This was very sweet of her, and not at all necessary. But my son sure felt special. It was a nice treat.

Now that he's a little older, and has a younger brother who's NOT allergic to nuts, he doesn't mind when he can't have the cake at a birthday party, and will even say to my youngest that it's OK for him to eat the cake. But when he was 3? 4? And was the ONLY child at school not allowed to have the cupcakes brought in by some child's mom for her kids birthday, it's hard to not feel "left out". As his mom, I've ALWAYS provided the teachers with little things to keep in their desk for him, so when other children had a treat he couldn't safely eat, he had something safe too. Not all parents of allergic children are like me, either, nor do they need to be, their child's allergy not being as severe off the bat as mine.

We are VERY VERY VERY lucky. We've bought 4 epi pens every year, and have NEVER had to use one of them. For those of you who don't deal with this, that's a $100 charge PER epi pen, PER year, whether you use it or not. They expire.

We've always taught him to be SAFE with his allergy... always ask, if there's no ingredients listing, then we DON'T eat it... saying no thank you to offers of shared food... washing his hands. And now he'll even say "can I read the label please?" and has become more aware of the risks of cross contamination, and extra precautions he has to take to be safe when at school, at a restaurant (we called literally over 100 restaurants in San Diego this summer on our vacation, just to find a place that we could all go after my sisters wedding... before we found a place that would ask the chef to wash his hands, and would bring a separate bread basket for my son, that hadn't come in contact with their raisin pumpkin nut bread... nevermind offer to bring strawberries and whipped cream for dessert because the other options weren't safe for him!!)

Fact is, kids in younger grades are NOT old enough to self regulate their allergies. We can read stories to them, talk to them about not sharing food, and not accepting food. Drill into their heads that they have to wash their hands, or ask that their desk be wiped down after lunch to make sure they can get thru gym class without turning blue. We can tell them to ALWAYS ask "Is this safe for me?" or "Does this contain nuts? Did you read the label?" But when they're small, and all they know is that there's something their friend Johnny is eating, and everyone else is enjoying it, and they can't, it's just not fair to them. That's all they know. Once kids are in junior high, I believe they're old enough to self regulate their allergy, and take proper precautions. But when you have a young child in kindergarten, or even grade 3, who, at such an age, can't even self regulate his emotions and feelings (TONS of boys who developmentally CANNOT deal with emotions, and will hit, kick, scream, etc, because they literally can't make the connection between their feelings and the words needed to talk them thru!)... CANNOT possibly be solely responsible for looking after their own, severe, life threatening allergy. And for some kids, like MY son, it is *THAT* serious.

I say thank you to all the parents who call to ask if we can bring something else for Nathan to a birthday party... because I don't expect them to bake a cake they were just going to buy at a bakery, just so my kid can indulge. I'm happy to bake cupcakes and have him feel included that way. I don't expect all restaurants to change things, just so MY kid can eat there... because I know lots of people eat nuts (myself included, when my son isn't around!!)... we just know what restaurants are on our "safe" list, and eat there. I say thank you to ALL those parents who, inconvenient or not, have allowed me to breathe easy knowing that my child can go to school, and learn with all his peers, and be SAFE...learning, laughing, having fun - heaven forbid, BEING A KID!!, without having to worry that he might have an allergic reaction that day that could end his life.

Put yourself in my shoes for a moment... wouldn't you appreciate having that peace of mind?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

You know what's weird? It's only kids who have really bad peanut allergies.

A good buddy of mine is severely allergic, and he's in his 30s. So not just kids.

A point I brought up last time we had this debate, what about the families below the poverty line. The ones who cannot afford no-name balogna so to ensure the kid gets nutrition they want to send him with PB&J sandwiches to school. Or what about kids who won't eat other things? I know at one point as a kid I ate PB almost exclusively, and into junior high I would usually throw out what my mom made and go hit Burger King for lunch. Other kids would sometimes just throw out their lunch and go without.

So in my examples above, the peanut ban puts the needs of the few above the needs of the many; as I imagine there are more poor families and fussy kids than kids with allergies.

I'm not saying there is no need to be insensitive, but an all out ban seems excessive to me. And who is going to speak up and say "But we are too poor to feed our kids meat for lunch."?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by ken0042

And who is going to speak up and say "But we are too poor to feed our kids meat for lunch."?

There are services to help families like that, although I personally don't really understand people needing them.

I was poor growing up. I spent more than one day a week walking up and down Deerfoot trail collecting cans and bottles to help pay the bills. We almost always ate bologna for lunch. I hated the stuff, but I knew the ham I liked was more expensive. To this day I often wonder what people thought of a 10 year old kid walking down Deerfoot trail.

[ken0042]

And that's my point Rathji. I take your post to say that although you were poor, your parents did whatever they could to make ends meet. That walking down Deerfoot probably built a lot of character into you that makes you a better person today.

Some people would rather hold their heads up high, and do what they can without resorting to handouts. Now those families should have to swallow their pride because its easier for the school to ban peanuts than it is to set up different lunch rooms?

[Rathji]

I see your point. I probably better to remember working my butt of to survive rather than remembering weekly trips to the foodbank.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by jammies

Sounds like you are being reasonable about the risks, and are weighing them sensibly. If I had a kid with a serious allergy I'd be equally careful, but I wouldn't expect the entire world to revolve around his/her special needs, which is the main issue I have with all the hysteria.

Plus, if my kid was diagnosed with any allergy, I'd get a 2nd, informed opinion from another doctor (preferably a specialist), as there is a big difference between a mild allergy which might make you break out in hives, and one that is life-threatening. Your story of your doctor and the 1 in 100 chance of dying sounds like it is pulled out of thin air by a physician who isn't much of an allergy authority, or even more likely, one who is deadly afraid of lawsuits and figures going way overboard in stating the risks is covering his/her ass.

PS: I'm not criticizing and I have no idea whether you've consulted a specialist or not. It's just what I would do, as I've personally had experience with doctors who overdramatize test results as if your immediate death was staring out of the paper.

PPS - this guy's blog pretty well sums up how I feel, and has some good links about the subject too.

Sorry I should have been more specific. The specialist told my wife and I that our daughter was still allergic to tree nuts. That was after the 50 (or is it 100?) needles in the back to test what she is and isn't allergic to. I don't know much about medicine and doctors, but I would think that it is standard policy for a family physician to send a patient to an allergy specialist if he thought his patient was showing signs of having an allergic reaction.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by ken0042

A good buddy of mine is severely allergic, and he's in his 30s. So not just kids.

A point I brought up last time we had this debate, what about the families below the poverty line. The ones who cannot afford no-name balogna so to ensure the kid gets nutrition they want to send him with PB&J sandwiches to school. Or what about kids who won't eat other things? I know at one point as a kid I ate PB almost exclusively, and into junior high I would usually throw out what my mom made and go hit Burger King for lunch. Other kids would sometimes just throw out their lunch and go without.

So in my examples above, the peanut ban puts the needs of the few above the needs of the many; as I imagine there are more poor families and fussy kids than kids with allergies.

I'm not saying there is no need to be insensitive, but an all out ban seems excessive to me. And who is going to speak up and say "But we are too poor to feed our kids meat for lunch."?

Here in Red Deer the poor kids have some charitable organization drop off lunches for them everyday. Too me your argument for the poor kids is similar to the argument for banning nuts at school. The majority has to be inconvenienced for the few when it comes to nut allergies, I do admit that (although it is more of a litigation thing for the schools than it is about making concessions for kids with spacial needs). Still only a handful of kids attending schools in Alberta would be so poor that they couldn't afford any other protein source other than peanut butter (assuming these kids don't receive some sort of charitable lunch). Should the lives of the few kids with nut allergies be put at risk so that the few poor kids that don't like bologna can eat peanut butter? Seems like basically the same argument with the difference being possible death for the kids with nut allergies.

[Ro]

Originally Posted by Flamesmom

Fact is, kids in younger grades are NOT old enough to self regulate their allergies.

First off, thanks for sharing your story. I have been browsing this thread over the last couple days, not exactly sure which side of the issue I stand on, but stories like yours bring up a number of excellent points.

Like the one I quoted above, which I take to be a one sentence summary of what you shared (I hope that's not seen as a disservice to your lengthy post!).

So I have a question for you, partly because I am kind of stuck in the middle on this one:

Would you support a ban on peanut butter products in middle school? High school? An even broader spectrum (universities, workplaces)? Does there come a point in time when children/teens need to take some responsibility in, as you put, self-regulating their allergies?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Still only a handful of kids attending schools in Alberta would be so poor that they couldn't afford any other protein source other than peanut butter (assuming these kids don't receive some sort of charitable lunch). Should the lives of the few kids with nut allergies be put at risk so that the few poor kids that don't like bologna can eat peanut butter? Seems like basically the same argument with the difference being possible death for the kids with nut allergies.

Well, according to the CBC, 11.7 per cent of children under 18 are living below the low-income cut-off line.

So a significant number; at least more significant than the numbers that have been thrown around for nut allergies. Never mind those who are trying to save money, or those who may be vegitarians.

It's not like I'm saying the allergic kids should be put at risk, I'm just questioning if banning peanuts is the best course of action. If they had separate lunch rooms, the risk would be reduced significantly.

[GGG]

Interesting article on why not to ban peanuts. Not sure of the validity or quality of the website as I was just googling trying find if bans have been effective at reducing deaths. It presents some interesting points

http://www.calgaryallergy.ca/Article.../whynotban.htm

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Ro

First off, thanks for sharing your story. I have been browsing this thread over the last couple days, not exactly sure which side of the issue I stand on, but stories like yours bring up a number of excellent points.

Like the one I quoted above, which I take to be a one sentence summary of what you shared (I hope that's not seen as a disservice to your lengthy post!).

So I have a question for you, partly because I am kind of stuck in the middle on this one:

Would you support a ban on peanut butter products in middle school? High school? An even broader spectrum (universities, workplaces)? Does there come a point in time when children/teens need to take some responsibility in, as you put, self-regulating their allergies?

Flames Mom did address that in her post.

Once kids are in junior high, I believe they're old enough to self regulate their allergy, and take proper precautions.

[metal_geek]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Well, according to the CBC, 11.7 per cent of children under 18 are living below the low-income cut-off line.

So a significant number; at least more significant than the numbers that have been thrown around for nut allergies. Never mind those who are trying to save money, or those who may be vegitarians.

It's not like I'm saying the allergic kids should be put at risk, I'm just questioning if banning peanuts is the best course of action. If they had separate lunch rooms, the risk would be reduced significantly.

What about the poor kids who are alergic to peanuts? Peanut allergies don't choose people based on thier parents tax bracket. It's convient for sone people and thats great, but it's life and death for others. They don't get the luxury to choose peanuts as an option.

Seperate rooms don't really offer anything to the picture. The kids already know they can't share lunches, and the cross contamination risk is excatly the same. If seperate rooms offered any benifit, I'd support it over the alternative but it just doesn't.

Nut allergys never end for the kids with the deathly allergies, but at some point, like everything else that have to take thier own responsibilty. I think that by the end of elementry school, a nut allergy child has to be ready to face that without the support of school administration. Once kids get to that age, parents of the non allergy kids don't have as much control over what gets eaten, and the non allergy kids aren't can't be expected to make the same choices thier "wiser" parents would have made. I don't think the ban should be lifted out right, but I think by that age a child with a peanut allergy has to be prepared. I don't think making elementry school a nut free zone for the children as the learn is too much to ask.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by GGG

Interesting article on why not to ban peanuts. Not sure of the validity or quality of the website as I was just googling trying find if bans have been effective at reducing deaths. It presents some interesting points

http://www.calgaryallergy.ca/Article.../whynotban.htm

Some of that is pretty simplistic and doesn't really help solve any of the problems. Like I said before, it is the school that insists on having the ban. Personally I never would have thought in a million years that any school would ever consider having a food ban of any kind. I never gave it much thought even after my daughter was diagnosed by a specialist as having allergies to tree nuts. Because of the fear of litigation I feel that regardless how I feel about it as a parent, the schools will continue to protect themselves from potential lawsuits by keeping the bans in place.

Just because the school has a ban on nuts does not mean that the parents or the children will become complacent or lackadaisical when it comes to the reality of the child's allergies. Like Flames Mom stated, there is no such thing as a nut free anything. Pretty much every restaurant or home has nuts or traces of some kind of nuts kicking around. You always have to be aware and careful wherever you are.

The part about educating your child is a little insulting. To think that schools are putting bans on nuts because the parents are not educating their own children about the realities of their life threatening allergies is ridiculous. Of course we are teaching the children to be carefull and to know what they are eating. One has to remember that a 5 or 6 year old kid is just learning to read. So they can not read food labels themselves. Young kids do not have a full understanding of their consequences either. As they age and become wiser and more experienced they need to be supervised less and less because they understand and can make better decisions themselves. At early ages though, and I know anyone with kids can relate, you need to help them understand. They can't always be trusted to do the right thing or to think of every consequence themselves.

[Ro]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Flames Mom did address that in her post.

Oh, thanks. Missed that! Cheers...

[Flamesmom]

Originally Posted by Ro

First off, thanks for sharing your story. I have been browsing this thread over the last couple days, not exactly sure which side of the issue I stand on, but stories like yours bring up a number of excellent points.

Like the one I quoted above, which I take to be a one sentence summary of what you shared (I hope that's not seen as a disservice to your lengthy post!).

So I have a question for you, partly because I am kind of stuck in the middle on this one:

Would you support a ban on peanut butter products in middle school? High school? An even broader spectrum (universities, workplaces)? Does there come a point in time when children/teens need to take some responsibility in, as you put, self-regulating their allergies?

I am actually scanning a document put out by the Canadian Society of Allergy and Clinical Immunology right now, and will post a link in a minute... which touches on this very thing. But I'll tell you MY personal opinion, since you asked

For the younger ones, as I said, who cannot self regulate their own allergies, I agree that no peanuts, peanut butter and nut containing products should be allowed. (And sorry to the "picky" kids, of which I have one, but they won't die from not eating a peanut butter sandwich for lunch... but a small amount of residue from that sandwich, on a table that LOOKS to have been wiped off, could cause a life threatening reaction in MY kid.)

For middle school, highschool, college, workplaces, etc... I believe that any cafeteria food needs proper labelling, same as cafeterias in offices downtown, and colleges. The cooking staff needs to be VERY aware, or have a booklet made up of all the labels used in their establishment, for easy viewing of an allergic person. By middle school, the children should be aware enough to look after things. My son can almost do that now, and he's only 8yrs old and often lacks the impulses to say no to an offer of some delicious food BUT he knows the risks, and how important this is, and asks to see labels, enquires about cross contamination possibilities, etc.

So no, I don't believe they should remove things. But make sure that all those around are educated... including the middle school and highschool children, on the severity of a peanut allergy. Cleaning staff needs to be using PROPER disinfecting practices in shared eating spaces. Also, well educated cafe staff that are completely aware of their food ingredients so the allergic kids/adults, etc, can make safe choices FOR THEMSELVES.

[Flamesmom]

The article is called "Anaphylaxis in Schools and Other Child Care Settings."




Another website of interest:
http://www.peanutaware.com/school_tips.html

This woman has put an amazing amount of effort into this book (which I have), as well as her website. This page has a ton of info, as well as related links. Educate yourself before you sign on to an opinion on a topic you can't POSSIBLY understand unless you are the parent of an allergic child (and I say this, because I didn't have a clue before we almost lost MY kid.)

[J pold]

I voiced my opinion on this topic in a thread a couple of months ago but here it goes again.

I have very rare fairly serious allergy. It has put me in a life threatening state before and I have been treated for it in emergency rooms before. I'm exposed to it almost everyday not matter what I do. However managing my condition is my responsibility not anyone else. I could put a lot of people in my life at a large inconvenience to try accommodate my needs but I refuse to do that. I take the necessary precautions to do whatever I have to too prevent myself from having a serious reaction. I don't expect others do too that. Because of this I have little to sympathy for parents with kids that have a peanut allergy. It's there responsibility to take care of there children.