Liberals Cancel Opposition Day

[MarchHare]

Are you suggesting that a political scandal offered up by the LIBERALS, that is now reaching into the multi-millions of TAXPAYERS dollars, isnt enough for other people to consider an alternative party??

Wow.

Even if I wasnt a conservative leaning guy....this whole episode, (which is just so indicative of the entire Fiberal party IMO) would have me seriously looking at ANY other party than the one that is perpetrating this colossal and criminal rip-off of Canadians EVRYWHERE.

I didn't vote PC after the Mulroney years for much of the same reason...they didnt deserve to be returned to office. Period. Why is it different now just because the Fibs are the party?

No. What I'm saying is that those on the right accuse those who continue to support the Liberals of fearmongering and shifting the debate away from the sponsorship scandal to their perceived shortcomings of a potential CPC government. But the Conservative-backers are doing exactly the same thing. Rather than defending their own party, all they do is attack the Liberals.

So tell me why I should support the CPC based solely on their own merits, rather than resorting to the excuse "anybody is better than the Liberals".

I personally don't believe a Conservative government would be an improvement. I'm not the least bit happy about the scandal, but if a few million a year of defrauded tax revenue (which was all likely committed by individuals no longer part of the Martin government) is the cost I must pay to keep the CPC out of power, I'm more than willing to accept that. And I'm far from alone in that attitude. Perhaps conservative Canadians need to examine why it is that their party is so hated by many in the nation that even when their opponents steal taxpayers' money they're still willing to put up with them.

[Looger]

i just don't get it.

canadians succeed IN SPITE OF our government, which as far as i'm concerned no matter who's in power every decision they make will alienate seemingly 49% of the population.

dirty tricks in politics...

no. way.

[Bingo]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 20 2005, 12:37 PM
Perhaps conservative Canadians need to examine why it is that their party is so hated by many in the nation that even when their opponents steal taxpayers' money they're still willing to put up with them.

I think that is way over stated ...

regionalism in Canada has cast a shadow over all national politics. Many (clearly don't have the stats) in Ontario are voting Liberal just to make sure Alberta can't wrestle power away from Ontario in national affairs. That's not hatred for a conservative platform it's fear of a regional shift in power.

That and trying to get elected without an official policy book (PC's) was pretty much insane last time around. Hard to defend fear politics from Martin when you don't have anything down on paper.

Overall this is likely all good for Canada in the long run. A change in government to the conservatives regardless of tenure will be good for the nation, and this type of brow beating can only make the Liberals better long term too. Future governments in Canada are going to have to be very, very careful to either not cheat or do a heck of a better job of not getting caught.

[MarchHare]

I think that is way over stated ...

regionalism in Canada has cast a shadow over all national politics. Many (clearly don't have the stats) in Ontario are voting Liberal just to make sure Alberta can't wrestle power away from Ontario in national affairs. That's not hatred for a conservative platform it's fear of a regional shift in power.

I'm not so sure of that. I've been following similar discussions as this one on two other forums, and the overall impression I get from people who continue to support the Liberals is that they fear a Conservative government and the policies they would bring. I never got a sense at all that the rest of Canada was anti-Alberta or anything, but I think virtually everyone can acknowledge the fact that the brand of conservatism that is popular in this province is anything but elsewhere.

Anyway, here's some sample comments. Granted, this is by no means a scientific representative sample of the opinions of the majority of Canadians, but anecdotally these might show you why some people are choosing to continue to support the Liberal Party, and regionalism certainly isn't it.

This scandal bothers me a lot. I'm traditionally a Liberal voter, and a Martin supporter, but this is enough for me to not vote for them. I can't vote for the NDP, as I lived under their thumb in Ontario, and watched as they destroyed BC to the best of their abilites. They're bad for Canada. I can't vote for the Conservatives, because they embody everything I despise about the Republicans, without the protections that the US has (separation of church and state, for example). They're bad for Canada. Being on the right-wing fringe of the Liberals, I would vote PC, but they're gone, so where does that leave me? Disenfranchised.

I would rather have Martin, who is doing his best to find out what is happening here than Harper, who's policies (hidden and unhidden) I completely disagree with.

I'd rather have a little corruption than watch the Conservative social agenda be implemented.

The main point for me is that most governments have had corruption or a member whose actions tarnished the trust of the people...The system in place stinks....the democratic defecit stinks...Harper is not going to change that and him and his parties ideology scares me!

Sure, now it;s JUST same sex marriage but it WILL lead to other changes like reduction of womens rights and a foreign policy that most Canadians don't want...

I'll admit right now that I lean towards the Liberal party (on the federal political scene). This doesn't mean I haven't and won't consider alternatives. But for me (and this is my personal opinion), I can't consider the Conservative party as it stands now. Resurrecting the PC party (which is more moderate) gives Canadians like myself a true alternative to the Liberal party.

Should the Conservative party change it's tune and start playing to the more moderate voters in the country, they really stand a chance of winning. The federal Liberal party has done a fantastic job of playing to the middle. It's something I think the Conservatives should learn from.

I don't trust the Conservatives. I don't trust their judgement, and I don't trust their motives.

Their support of the Iraq war, and their calls for Canadian involvement in the Iraq war, was enough to ensure that I will not be voting for them for a LONG LONG time.

[...]

To me, the Conservative party seems to be an importation of American Politics Lite! into Canada: The alarmist rhetoric aimed at hot buttons (child pornography!), the earnest willingness to glue their lips to US asscheeks (Iraq, NMD), focus on the military, flirtation with private health care, and incessant calls for lower taxes without any justification as to how it's going to improve the state of our nation.

All of the above quotes are from this thread.

And there's more from here:

I'd rather vote for a party that'll steal money from me (as if that's anything new, most taxes nowadays are squandered so badly it's practically stealing anyway) than a party that aims to be a US lapdog.

And to be fair, here's one post from that second link that does touch on your issue of fear of Western regionalism:

Personally, the Conservatives have lost my vote. I went for Harper last, and a Conservative was elected in my riding, but I'll be voting Liberal the next time out because I just don't like or trust the Conservatives when it comes to social policy. The Western regionalism bothers me a lot, as does the party's big ties to wingnut fundamentalist Christianity. And -- this is lame, I know -- Harper himself is cold and creepy. He doesn't seem trustworthy at all. I really wish Peter McKay had emerged as Conservative leader. Maybe he'll have a shot at taking over after Harper loses another election.

As I said though, the impression I get from most of those other posts I quoted was a distinct dislike of the Conservative Party's platform, not a fear of Ontario losing power to Alberta.

As for your second point, I completely agree that this will be good for the country in the longterm. Despite my support of the policies of the Liberal Party, I wouldn't mind seeing a short-lived Conservative minority. Although I'm reserving my judgement until the final results of the Gomery Inquiry are released, I don't believe Martin or any current Liberals were involved in the scandal, but the system itself needs more oversight when this kind of corruption is only discovered by the Auditor General nearly a decade after it began. If nothing else, this should lead to better watchdogs on how the various departments spend their budgets.

[Bingo]

What policies do the average person question?

Ones on the books, or ones that Martin tried to hang on Harper campaign despite direct quotes to the contrary that actually came from Harper himself?

To me that was a huge issue in the last election.

And I'm not saying Ontario is "anti-Albera", but pro-Ontario in wanting to hold power in the East. It wouldn't be that way if the Liberals had more support out west.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 20 2005, 05:01 PM


I'm not so sure of that. I've been following similar discussions as this one on two other forums, and the overall impression I get from people who continue to support the Liberals is that they fear a Conservative government and the policies they would bring. I never got a sense at all that the rest of Canada was anti-Alberta or anything, but I think virtually everyone can acknowledge the fact that the brand of conservatism that is popular in this province is anything but elsewhere.

I think you're right that this is about fear.

I'd suggest it's fear stemming from ignorance though.

There's almost no difference between the 'brand' of conservativism in Alberta and the rest of the country, at least in practice. And most canadians wouldn't have the foggiest idea what 90% of conservative policies are. But the regionalism issue Bingo brings up has somehow made what are largely the same policies coast to coast seem somehow vastly different.

It's a way easier to understand you don't like those darn albertans (or quebecers, or whatever) then to figure out how the policies work, and decide whther or not you like those.

[MarchHare]

What policies do the average person question?

Ones on the books, or ones that Martin tried to hang on Harper campaign despite direct quotes to the contrary that actually came from Harper himself?

From what I've seen, Harper's support of the Iraq war (and his willingness to involve Canadian troops), his opposition to allowing same-sex marriage, and his willingness to experiment with a two-tiered or semi-privatized healthcare system seem to be the biggest concerns. And despite the fact that banning abortion is no longer part of the official CPC platform, there is certainly a fear (perhaps unfounded, perhaps not) that with so many members of the Conservative Party being outspoken pro-lifers, it could perhaps be sprung on Canadians should Harper ever gain power.

Also, as I'm from New Brunswick originally, I can tell you that Maritimers have neither forgiven nor forgotten Harper saying they have a "culture of defeatism". I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the only seats the Conservatives won in Atlantic Canada last year were ones that were previously held by a former-PC member.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by MarchHare+Apr 20 2005, 01:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MarchHare @ Apr 20 2005, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No. What I'm saying is that those on the right accuse those who continue to support the Liberals of fearmongering and shifting the debate away from the sponsorship scandal to their perceived shortcomings of a potential CPC government.# But the Conservative-backers are doing exactly the same thing.# Rather than defending their own party, all they do is attack the Liberals.

[/b]

Well geez. I'm sorry but what's coming out of the Gomery inquiry is indeed attack worthy. Not only that, it is legitimate stuff to attack the Liberals about as opposed to all the 'hidden agenda' garbage directed at the CPC. As far as i'm concerned, the Liberal Party has now degenerated to the point where pretty much any party is better than them simply because they are not Liberal.

Originally posted by MarchHare+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MarchHare)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
So tell me why I should support the CPC based solely on their own merits, rather than resorting to the excuse "anybody is better than the Liberals".
[/b]

http://www.conservative.ca/documents...ECLARATION.pdf

Don't agree with the policies? Fine. Don't vote for em. All i'm saying, again, is don't vote Liberal. Before it was cause they are incompetent and wasteful in my eyes, now it is because they are corrupt. This is not idle speculation that they are corrupt, it is being proven. And it's not just the card carrying Liberal chef at caucus meetings that is corrupt, it's high ranking Liberal officials.

If you and that thing you call a political party want to support corrupt government there are plenty of other countries you can move to where you'll fit right in.

<!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare@

I personally don't believe a Conservative government would be an improvement.# I'm not the least bit happy about the scandal, but if a few million a year of defrauded tax revenue (which was all likely committed by individuals no longer part of the Martin government) is the cost I must pay to keep the CPC out of power, I'm more than willing to accept that.
[/quote]
That's great logic. So, just so we're on the same page, pretend you own a multi-million dollar company. I come and work for you. I steal, say, 1000 dollars. Are you telling me that you would still keep my on company payroll and not fire me simply because:

a) 1000 dollars is not that much money.
b) You are too scared to hire someone else?

That's what i'm gathering from this. It's okay to steal in government, just don't steal too much. It's still better than the alternative. The alternative which has undergone several changes since the last time it was in government and has not been in power for the last decade+ so really, it's hard to tell if they'd be corrupt or waste as much money as the Liberals. Until this is proven like it is being proven for the Liberal Party, i'm willing to take my chances elsewhere.

Again, if this was an isolated incident I probably would be more inclined to be leniant. This is not an isolated incident though. This was high ranking Liberals doing the stealing, and high ranking Liberals (in all likelyhood) knowing about it. Frankly, i'm more frightened about what sorts of fraud and corruption has happened at the hands of the Liberals that we don't know about as opposed to the 'scary' CPC.

<!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare

And I'm far from alone in that attitude.# Perhaps conservative Canadians need to examine why it is that their party is so hated by many in the nation that even when their opponents steal taxpayers' money they're still willing to put up with them.
[/quote]
I pray you are wrong in your assessment that there are alot more blind followers of the Liberal Party, even after what has happened. Frankly, I have no idea why you people will continue to support the Liberal Party now. I also have no idea why your kind fears the CPC so much, though I suspect it has something to do with the Liberal clap trap that comes out of the party ever so often. It really defies logic though.

I will take the baby eating CPC party over corrupt government any day of the week. Again, move to Zimbabwe or something if you want to support corrupt government, which is exactly what you are doing...

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 20 2005, 06:30 PM
From what I've seen, Harper's support of the Iraq war (and his willingness to involve Canadian troops), his opposition to allowing same-sex marriage, and his willingness to experiment with a two-tiered or semi-privatized healthcare system seem to be the biggest concerns.

Glad we stayed out of Iraq, I thank the Liberals for that. Could not care less about same sex marriage at this point. I supported it, then supported it as long as it wasn't called 'marriage' (figured this would appease both sides), then decided to no longer care about it any longer as every news network I pick up on my TV was doing enough caring anyways.

Healthcare though? We drop a boatload of money into healthcare compared to other countries and yet our quality is not the same as them. As well, I believe we join North Korea and China, I think it is, as the only countries in the world that don't allow private healthcare.

The system is in big trouble and needs to be fixed and private-public care is one of the possible solutionss. As opposed to continually dropping more money into the system in order to, at best, keep up with demand...

[Resolute 14]

You do realize that our health care system is already a hybrid system, right MarchHare?

Nobody, anywhere, at any point, any time has suggested anything close to a us-style health care plan.

We are not headed to privatization of hospitals or US-style HMOs.

If you think otherwise, you have been absolutely brainwashed.

As far as same sex marriage goes, a slim majority of Canadians oppose changing the definition. 52%-44% according to an Environics poll released March 10.

However, nobody has stated a desire to reduce or remove rights for gay unions. While the US is reducing rights for gay couples, Canada is merely fighting over a word.

Oooh, some boogeyman!

Personally, I think the government should simply remove the word "marriage" from the books altogether. Truthfully, it doesnt matter. I will never consider a gay union a marriage regardless of the official definition. Similaraly, I will never consider a common-law union a marriage either, regardless of current laws. It is a fight over a word. Remove the word, remove the fight, and let people decide on their own what to call themselves.


As for Iraq, what Harper would have done is irrelevent. The war is long since passed. Anyone that makes that an issue this time around is just searching for an excuse to remain ignorant. They also ignore that conventional wisom was that if Martin had been PM at the time, he might have supported the war.

Of course, Martin being who he is, he would have waffled and stalled until the entire war passed him by. If there is one word that describes Canada under Paul Martin, it is "irrelevent".

[MarchHare]

Don't agree with the policies? Fine. Don't vote for em.

Believe me, I wouldn't if I had an attractive alternative. I don't agree with the CPC's policies, and I don't trust the NDP to not p*ss all our money away. The way I see it, my options are either to hold my nose about the scandal and vote Liberal or abstain.

That's great logic. So, just so we're on the same page, pretend you own a multi-million dollar company. I come and work for you. I steal, say, 1000 dollars. Are you telling me that you would still keep my on company payroll and not fire me simply because:

a) 1000 dollars is not that much money.
b) You are too scared to hire someone else?

You attack my logic, and then you follow it up with poor logic of your own. Colour me unimpressed.

so really, it's hard to tell if they'd be corrupt or waste as much money as the Liberals. Until this is proven like it is being proven for the Liberal Party, i'm willing to take my chances elsewhere.

Never once did I suggest a potential CPC government would be corrupt or wasteful. It's their publicly stated positions on many issues that I find distasteful and unworthy of my support.

Frankly, i'm more frightened about what sorts of fraud and corruption has happened at the hands of the Liberals that we don't know about as opposed to the 'scary' CPC.

In one breath you accuse your opponents of being moronic and needlessly fearing "hidden agenda", and then you go on to complain about "hidden corruption" at the hands of the Liberals. Please.

Also, why should I trust the Conservatives when their deputy leader publicly promised not to merge with the Alliance and then did just that? They already have a history of being dishonest and they haven't even been elected yet.

I also have no idea why your kind fears the CPC so much, though I suspect it has something to do with the Liberal clap trap that comes out of the party ever so often. It really defies logic though.

Why do I loathe the CPC so much? It has absolutely nothing to do with anything at all that the Liberals have said, and everything to do with what comes from the mouths of your own party members.

"We should have been there shoulder to shoulder with our allies."
-Stephen Harper, on the invasion of Iraq

"We support the war effort and believe we should be supporting our troops and our allies and be there with them doing everything necessary to win."
-Harper on Iraq again

"We should try to keep our mothers in the home and that's where the whole Reform platform hangs together."
-Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative MP of Yorkton-Melville

"Foreign nationals without status should not be under the protection of the Canadian charter."
-Inky Mark, Conservative MP of Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette

"Marriage is open to everybody as long as they're a man and a woman."
-Jason Kenney, Conservative MP of Calgary Southeast

"Make no mistake. Canada is not a bilingual country."
-Stephen Harper

"There is a dependence in the region that breeds a culture of defeatism."
-Stephen Harper on Atlantic Canadians

"You've got to remember that west of Winnipeg the ridings the Liberals hold are dominated by people who are either recent Asian immigrants or recent migrants from eastern Canada: people who live in ghettoes and who are not integrated into western Canadian society."
-Harper again

"On the justification for the war, it wasn't related to finding any particular weapon of mass destruction. In our judgment, it was much more fundamental. It was the removing of a regime that was hostile, that clearly had the intention of constructing weapons systems. … I think, frankly, that everybody knew the post-war situation was probably going to be more difficult than the war itself. Canada remains alienated from its allies, shut out of the reconstruction process to some degree, unable to influence events. There is no upside to the position Canada took."
-Harper on Iraq again

As to the italicized part, of course there's the upside that none of our brave service members were killed for non-existant WMDs and connections to Al Qaeda.

Anyway, I could go on all night. The Conservatives have made their own bed. I don't need the Liberals to tell me why I shouldn't vote for them; they do a good enough job of that themselves.

[REDVAN]

MarchHare you're missing the whole point why us westerners hate the Liberals. I'll give you a little run-down of how it is in Canada. ALBERTA gives the federal government money. Everyone else takes that money.

If the conservatives were in power that would not happen so strongly. And even if AB got our money taken, we'd get some sort of importance in the government. There is a Canada outside of Ontario and Quebec, believe it or not for the Liberals.

And on another topic, maybe I'll start a new one. I want Quebec to seperate so we don't have to give them any more money too.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 20 2005, 07:50 PM
You attack my logic, and then you follow it up with poor logic of your own. Colour me unimpressed.

Ironically, you attack another poster for creating a false dilemma exactly one paragraph after creating one yourself.

Do you really think that the CPC, Liberals and NDP are your only choices in an election?

Or simply, do you really think your choices are either Liberal or abstain?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by REDVAN@Apr 20 2005, 08:01 PM
MarchHare you're missing the whole point why us westerners hate the Liberals. I'll give you a little run-down of how it is in Canada. ALBERTA gives the federal government money. Everyone else takes that money.

If the conservatives were in power that would not happen so strongly. And even if AB got our money taken, we'd get some sort of importance in the government. There is a Canada outside of Ontario and Quebec, believe it or not for the Liberals.

And on another topic, maybe I'll start a new one. I want Quebec to seperate so we don't have to give them any more money too.

Imo, that is a little naive.

Ontario is, and always will be the seat of Canadian government. Even the Conservative party, with a Westerner in Harper as leader would pander to Ontario to maintain it's votes.

Even if the CPC were to do less to try and placate Quebec - with the possible consequence of seeing them finally leave while trying to rob us blind on the way out - the money not wasted there would be wasted in Ontario.

That is one of the things that will never change in Canadian politics.

And it is specifically why the CPC is slowly moving to the left.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by Bingo+Apr 20 2005, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bingo @ Apr 20 2005, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare@Apr 20 2005, 12:37 PM
Perhaps conservative Canadians need to examine why it is that their party is so hated by many in the nation that even when their opponents steal taxpayers' money they're still willing to put up with them.

I think that is way over stated ...

regionalism in Canada has cast a shadow over all national politics. Many (clearly don't have the stats) in Ontario are voting Liberal just to make sure Alberta can't wrestle power away from Ontario in national affairs. That's not hatred for a conservative platform it's fear of a regional shift in power.

That and trying to get elected without an official policy book (PC's) was pretty much insane last time around. Hard to defend fear politics from Martin when you don't have anything down on paper.

Overall this is likely all good for Canada in the long run. A change in government to the conservatives regardless of tenure will be good for the nation, and this type of brow beating can only make the Liberals better long term too. Future governments in Canada are going to have to be very, very careful to either not cheat or do a heck of a better job of not getting caught. [/b][/quote]
So what, when you vote the Cons here in Alberta is that just regionalism too, trying to wrest power from the east? Or do you actually like their policies?

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by Snakeeye+Apr 20 2005, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snakeeye @ Apr 20 2005, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare@Apr 20 2005, 07:50 PM
You attack my logic, and then you follow it up with poor logic of your own. Colour me unimpressed.

Ironically, you attack another poster for creating a false dilemma exactly one paragraph after creating one yourself.

Do you really think that the CPC, Liberals and NDP are your only choices in an election?

Or simply, do you really think your choices are either Liberal or abstain? [/b][/quote]
In a purely technical sense, no, my choices aren't just the Liberals, Conservatives, or NDP. I could vote for the Green Party, the Marijuana Party, the Natural Law Party (are they still around?), an independant candidate, etc.

In reality though, if I want my vote to go to a candidate with a chance of winning rather than being a mere statistic, the big three are my only choice. And the fact that I live in Calgary means that the Conservative Party is going to win regardless of how I vote, so it's a moot point anyway.

As for my point about the only options I find palatable are to either vote Liberal or abstain, how would you suggest I vote, given that I don't support the platform of either the CPC or the NDP?

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 21 2005, 03:26 AM
how would you suggest I vote, given that I don't support the platform of either the CPC or the NDP?

I would suggest that you move to the Centre of Universe if you want your vote to count so bad...

[moon]

Its funny.

All of those quotes are reasons why I not only support the CPC but am as much of an active member as I can be.

I agree 100% with everyone of the quotes.

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by moon@Apr 21 2005, 03:37 AM
Its funny.

All of those quotes are reasons why I not only support the CPC but am as much of an active member as I can be.

I agree 100% with everyone of the quotes.

Ditto here.

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by moon@Apr 20 2005, 09:37 PM
Its funny.

All of those quotes are reasons why I not only support the CPC but am as much of an active member as I can be.

I agree 100% with everyone of the quotes.

And that's absolutely fine. I have no problem with you agreeing with a party's platform and supporting them for that reason.

I, on the other hand, do not agree with the Conservative Platform, and I'm not going to vote for them just because the some Liberals (who may or may not be involved with the party presently) were part of a scandal.

The reason I posted those quotes is because I was accused of disliking the Conservatives because of Liberal mud-slinging. In reality, I dislike the Conservatives because of their own words and actions.