Still believe in the death Penalty?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I think it's funny that those who are calling the practice barbaric and that we shouldn't be looking for revenge and vengence are then saying we should "let them rot in a jail cell".

It is? You put a person in prison and take away thier personal freedom and ability to do what they want and go where they want. To me that's a form of roting in jail.

For the record i don't find the death penalty barbaric. I just don't agree with it because innocent people would be executed in the process.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by fatso

so it's a rhetoric or diction issue then... I see. I'm not sure what your endgame here is. Are you trying to show the anti-death penalty crowd up to be hypocrites because they occasionally use incorrect or inappropriate language? That is, if they are going to talk in certain ways, they might as well alter their aims?

Relax fatso.

It's funny.

"We should be compassionate and not kill them - just make them rot in a urine soaked hell-hole where they'll be miserable for the rest of their lives - because killing them would be barbaric."
(paraphrased)


It's not an inflective commentary, it's just a observation.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Dion

It is? You put a person in prison and take away thier personal freedom and ability to do what they want and go where they want. To me that's a form of roting in jail.

Do you think a "be compassionate by maintaining their right to live the worst life imaginable" comment is a little funny?

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Relax fatso.

It's funny.

"We should be compassionate and not kill them - just make them rot in a urine soaked hell-hole where they'll be miserable for the rest of their lives - because killing them would be barbaric."
(paraphrased)


It's not an inflective commentary, it's just a observation.

huh? oh you must mean 'invective'. now that's funny!

believe me my stay-puft friend, I'm as relaxed as can be. It's the whole reason for procrastinating.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Thor

Let them rot in prison, people seem to think prison is some joy ride, you try 1yr, 5yrs, 10yrs, all your life in prison... Its hell.

I never said it was a joy ride and i do agree it is a form a hell. You'd think that fact would deter people from murdering someone or comitting any other crime. Sadly it's not a deterent.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Dr GonZo

The only true way of comparing the impact of caplital punishment (I won't use the acronym for obvious reasons) is by comparing murder rates directly before and directly after (maybe a time span of a few years) it's introduction/termination in the same area.

In the United States application of capital punishment was halted between 1972 and 1976. First halted after the Supreme Court decision in Furman v. Georgia which ruled that giving a Jury complete discretion over the application of capital punishment was unconstitutional. It was re-instated after the decisions of Gregg v. Georgia and Jurek v. Texas, ruling that it was not a violation of the 8th amendment. Executions resumed on January 17, 1977 when Gary Gilmore was killed by firing squad after demanding that Utah carry out the sentence (something they apparently had no intention of doing). His last words were "Let's do it."

Here are the stats for murder and non-negligent homicide from the US for the years 1972-1980

1972 - 18,670
1973 - 19,640
1974 - 20,710
1975 - 20,510
1976 - 18.780
1977 - 19,120
1978 - 19.560
1979 - 21,460
1980 - 23,040

So, there did seem to be an initial drop in homicides after the re-institution of the death penalty, but it was a short-lived drop and murders quickly rose to numbers higher than they had been during the moratorium.

The numbers continue to fluctuate, reaching a high of 24,703 killings in 1991 (at the height of the Crack epidemic) and dropping to a low of 15,522 in 1999.

1999 also saw the most executions carried out in the US with 98 and 2000 was the year that the most inmates were waiting on death row - 3,601.

sources:
http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t6792004.pdf
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/timeline.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gilmore

So there are some stats for you. They don't change my mind.

[FireFly]

Do you know if a person can request their method of execution? Or does it have to be lethal injection regardless?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Do you know if a person can request their method of execution? Or does it have to be lethal injection regardless?

In Utah you could choose hanging or shooting at one time.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Dr GonZo

Drastically? Perhaps a tad. Other than a murder in the prison, escape or early parol, which are all very realistic situations for murderers.

Second of all, it's hardly valid statistics to compare different states in different punishment environments. Living standards, crime rates in general, weapons per capita ratio are all variables that are significant to such a comparison. The only true way of comparing the impact of caplital punishment (I won't use the acronym for obvious reasons) is by comparing murder rates directly before and directly after (maybe a time span of a few years) it's introduction/termination in the same area.

Well here is a comparison

1990-1993 Kansas Average Murders per 100K - 5.6

1994-1997 Kansas Average Murders per 100K - 6.2

Take a guess which time period had the death penalty

This in a time period when, for a point of reference, the average murder rate in the states was as follows:

1992 - 9.3 murders per 100K (across the entire country)
1997 - 6.7 murders per 100K (across the entire country)

So the murder rate has been cut by about 33% nationally, yet in Kansas the murder rate goes up about 12%. Anyone who thinks that the death penalty does anything other than encourage more murders simply does not understand stats.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by fatso

why? Because all forms of punishment are equal? Because those against the death penalty cannot still want harsh justice? Because those against the death penalty want convicted criminals to have an easy time? Give me a break...

No, because there is a chance, like you and many others have pointed out, that you're throwing an innocent man into the jail cell to rot for life.

Funny how that is alright, but you seem to have a problem with executing criminals because there is a small chance(yes small, considering that DNA doesn't lie)....that the person to be executed could be innocent.

The person you throw into jail for the rest of his life could be innocent too.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dion

It is? You put a person in prison and take away thier personal freedom and ability to do what they want and go where they want. To me that's a form of roting in jail.

For the record i don't find the death penalty barbaric. I just don't agree with it because innocent people would be executed in the process.

Innocent people could be thrown in jail too.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Innocent people could be thrown in jail too.

Yes, but they get to live to see the sentence overturn if they are later found not guilty.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dion

Yes, but they get to live to see the sentence overturn if they are later found not guilty.

Which is the point of the length appeals process.

Its not like someone is found guilty, and taken out back and shot the next day.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Which is the point of the length appeals process.

Its not like someone is found guilty, and taken out back and shot the next day.

Look how long it took for Millgaard to be found innocent.

In other cases appeals have not been heard or ignored by the federal review board.

[Dion]

Whats your stance on this issue Azure?

[BuzzardsWife]

Originally Posted by Dion

What would you say to the families of Thomas Sophonow, David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin, Donald Marshall Jr., Steven Truscott, Erin Walsh? All found innocent years later

All would be dead now if you had that death penalty.

I don't know what I'd say to them, probably would never get the chance. But like I said, it's not a perfect system.

[peter12]

I don't believe the State should ever be allowed to determine when a person is allowed to live or die. Throw criminals in jail for life in order to protect society from them.

[Dion]

deleted

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dion

Whats your stance on this issue Azure?

I really don't know.

Part of me believes that the most horrific of crimes should warrant the death penalty, and the other part of me doesn't think that it helps to deter crime.

[Dr GonZo]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Anyone who thinks that the death penalty does anything other than encourage more murders simply does not understand stats.

This made me laugh at both the irony of the ignorance and arrogance of the statement. You talk statistics? Let's go.

First of all, a good researcher always states the origin of his findings, Im guess you got yours here.

Good work on choosing those years, as so many people do, they use data that will encourage their point. 1990 shows a much lower murder rate than 1989 and 1991, so good for you. How about the fact that there has been a steady decrease in the murder rate from 1994 and onward, and the murder rate in Kansas has consistently been at it's lowest the last half decade in 30 years? How do you explain that?

Moreover, by your logic, does this mean that capital punishment also encourages burglary, seeing those increased during those chosen years as well? Or better yet, maybe capital punishment decreases auto theft, seeing those numbers went down dramatically after 1994? You get my point, not only is there no correlation between murder rates and capital punishment, your conclusive causality is very obviously erroneous.

Furthermore, I don't see where you get your US stats from because I clearly read off the data that between 1994-1997 the murder rate per 100k is 7.9. That's a 17% drop, compared to the 33% drop as you state. Please show a link.

Why do you think murder rates in the US went down during this period? Do you think it has anything to do with the economic boom some regions encountered during the internet stock market bubble? Look at California for instance, murder rates plummeted during the mid 90's, which may be due to the increased job opportunities and welfare. Kansas kinda missed the boat on that one didn't they?

I don't have the time nor the encouragement to research statistical data showing crime rates going down after the introduction of capital punishment, but I'm still betting that capital punishment generally scares people away from doing things that can get them executed.

And finally, from a deductive perspective, how may I ask do you argue that the capital punishment encourages murder? I can't think of any logical reasoning behind your omnipotent statistical wisdom.

Please pardon my cynicism, but you gave me the high hat, I'm just hitting the ball back in your side of the court.