Young Evangelical Christians not locked in for Republicans

[Displaced Flames fan]

Interesting read really. I think too often people throw political affiliations around based on one demographic of a person.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/...ign/index.html

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Interesting read. I think demographic categories are sometimes a little overstated--they make handy talking points for news anchors on election night.

It's also not surprising that evangelicals are by and large showing disaffection with the GOP. In that they reflect the mood of the country as a whole, which is suffering a little from Bush fatigue. This Shane Claiborne sounds like an interesting guy, though. Claims to be nonpartisan, but his implicit message is clearly pretty anti-GOP.

[Azure]

Good.

I wish more people would tell the GOP that they're a screwup of a party.

[Calgaryborn]

"But these voters say views on abortion and homosexuality won't define them in November. The environment and social justice are moving to the forefront of their discussions."

I think CNN is out to lunch if they think abortion is going to cease being a dominate issue. Sounds like a bit of spin in the hope that by reporting it it will somehow happen. Evangelicals aren't thrilled with having McCain as the Republican Candidate and you will see a few stay home. You've already seen a huge drop in republican donations. Others will go libertarian but, most will vote McCain to keep out Obama because of the abortion issue.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Others will go libertarian but, most will vote McCain to keep out Obama because of the abortion issue.

Do they think anything will change on that issue if McCain becomes President?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Do they think anything will change on that issue if McCain becomes President?

I think that they are pretty well informed politically. McCain has had a history of moving left on issues to gain a consensus and isn't very well trusted. I don't know if McCain would keep his word and nominate originalists to the supreme court; Nobody does. Whoever he nominates will have to get through both houses which will be tough if they are conservative at all. He probably could be trusted to veto any law that permitted partial birth abortion or something like it.

Obama is in favour of partial birth abortion. Obama also is seen to be fairly far left. He would probably nominate some leftist activist like Ruth whats/her/name who was lead council for the ACLU before getting her seat on the court.

So to answer your question: They probably don't hold out any hope of change for the good if McCain becomes President. Their hope is that a McCain presidency won't make things worse.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Interesting read really. I think too often people throw political affiliations around based on one demographic of a person.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/...ign/index.html

Read this already.

I think in years past they were often fair stereotypes, they are just changing more now. Mostly because of this governments terrible track record on... well everything...

Even in the article the cite economy and environment as two concerns taking over concerns like homosexuality and abortion...

Which really shouldn't even be huge political issues anyway. (the last two) They are personal issues, not political.

As I've said several times, only in the U.S. (Fundamentalist West as I now call it) is this news.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think that they are pretty well informed politically. McCain has had a history of moving left on issues to gain a consensus and isn't very well trusted. I don't know if McCain would keep his word and nominate originalists to the supreme court; Nobody does. Whoever he nominates will have to get through both houses which will be tough if they are conservative at all. He probably could be trusted to veto any law that permitted partial birth abortion or something like it.

Obama is in favour of partial birth abortion. Obama also is seen to be fairly far left. He would probably nominate some leftist activist like Ruth whats/her/name who was lead council for the ACLU before getting her seat on the court.

So to answer your question: They probably don't hold out any hope of change for the good if McCain becomes President. Their hope is that a McCain presidency won't make things worse.

I think anyone who makes abortion a primary voting issue of theirs has an exreme misunderstanding of what the most important issues facing the US are. I'm no fan of abortion as a personal stance, but I don't think I have any business telling someone else what they can and can't do. We have to stop legislating morality and start voting on issues that matter to everyone.

I don't think abortion, given its state in this country, should ever be a primary voting issue.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I think anyone who makes abortion a primary voting issue of theirs has an exreme misunderstanding of what the most important issues facing the US are. I'm no fan of abortion as a personal stance, but I don't think I have any business telling someone else what they can and can't do. We have to stop legislating morality and start voting on issues that matter to everyone.

I don't think abortion, given its state in this country, should ever be a primary voting issue.

Another great post Dis--sums up the issue perfectly, IMO.

It often surprises people to know that I as a "pro-choice" person am not therefore "pro-abortion." In fact, my wife and I both agree that for us, abortion would not be an option, even in the event of a very inconveniently timed pregnancy--it just wouldn't sit right with us. However, we also recognize that it's a thorny issue, and one where people look for truth in different places, be it religion, science, ethics, etc. And it's a place where we have to trust in the ability of people to make their own moral judgments--and individual morality is the last place government should be sticking its nose into. A government that legislates personal morality is a dictatorship--part of democracy is embracing choice even on difficult questions.

I don't want to get into the abortion debate full bore--seems to me we've all been over it a few times anyway. But in my view the only wrong answer on the abortion issue is any answer that pretends it's a simple problem with an easy solution. It's not--like life it takes place on a messy middle ground where we each have to decide for ourselves what our moral standpoint really is.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Azure

Good.

I wish more people would tell the GOP that they're a screwup of a party.

I wish more people would realize that no matter how screwed up the GOP is, it is still a better option than Democratic party.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Azure

Good.

I wish more people would tell the GOP that they're a screwup of a party.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess.

Also, even though abortion shouldnt be outlawed because its not murder, it shows just how far to the gutter our society has gone that the action is even required. And the fact that the US is the only country still fighting (all be it a losing cause) the issue while every other country has given up shows the social difference that defines the US vis a vi the rest of the world.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

I wish more people would realize that no matter how screwed up the GOP is, it is still a better option than Democratic party.

Sure, I think McCain is a better choice than Obama.

That isn't saying much though.

[MarchHare]

Also, even though abortion shouldnt be outlawed because its not murder, it shows just how far to the gutter our society has gone that the action is even required.

Unwanted pregnancies have been an issue societies have faced since...forever. Before legalized abortion, women did not have the option to terminate their pregnancies in a safe and sanitary manner, so they often resorted to the "coat hanger in a back alley" method, which of course led to all kinds of health problems.

I think it's a sign of a modern and progressive society that we grant the right to women to choose to abort unwanted pregnancies in the safety of a medical clinic, performed by a doctor.

And the fact that the US is the only country still fighting (all be it a losing cause) the issue while every other country has given up shows the social difference that defines the US vis a vi the rest of the world.

The US, like all the Western democratic nations, already settled the abortion matter decades ago with the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision. Anyone still "fighting" the issue is just wasting effort trying to overturn something that was already decided long ago.

Besides, conservative Christians in the US have it completely backwards. If they really wanted to prevent abortions, they'd be fully in favour of teaching comprehensive sex education to teenagers, including how to acquire and effectively use various different methods of birth control. So why haven't they adobted that approach but instead opted for the head-in-the-sand "abstinence only" curriculum? Because Evangelical Christians don't really care about abortion, rather that's just a front for what they actually want to prevent: premarital sex.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The US, like all the Western democratic nations, already settled the abortion matter decades ago with the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision. Anyone still "fighting" the issue is just wasting effort trying to overturn something that was already decided long ago.

Not true at all.

Abortion is illegal in Ireland, Monaco, and Switzerland.

Only legal in the first trimester in Poland and Portugal.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I think anyone who makes abortion a primary voting issue of theirs has an exreme misunderstanding of what the most important issues facing the US are. I'm no fan of abortion as a personal stance, but I don't think I have any business telling someone else what they can and can't do. We have to stop legislating morality and start voting on issues that matter to everyone.

I don't think abortion, given its state in this country, should ever be a primary voting issue.

"A baby is no less a baby when it is surrounded by uterus walls"

If you believe the above statement to be true it would be hard to find an issue in any election that would trump a child's life.

[MelBridgeman]

abortions for some, miniature american flags for others! Is my take.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The US, like all the Western democratic nations, already settled the abortion matter decades ago with the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision. Anyone still "fighting" the issue is just wasting effort trying to overturn something that was already decided long ago.

Please inform Planned Parenthood and the ACLU that the war is over. They can close up shop and go home. Also please inform Congress that they need not stall and stop free votes when President Bush nominates someone to the courts.

This fight will never be over. Human lives are never a wasted effort.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Besides, conservative Christians in the US have it completely backwards. If they really wanted to prevent abortions, they'd be fully in favour of teaching comprehensive sex education to teenagers, including how to acquire and effectively use various different methods of birth control. So why haven't they adobted that approach but instead opted for the head-in-the-sand "abstinence only" curriculum? Because Evangelical Christians don't really care about abortion, rather that's just a front for what they actually want to prevent: premarital sex.

Conservative Christians have a big problem with the government(or their agents) teaching moral values and moral norms to their children. They see that as a prerogative of the parents. If sex education could be taught without touching morality there would be less of a problem. That won't happen. At the very least the instructor will communicate their moral views to the students.

There is no evidence that sexual education curbs pregnancies. There is much evidence that abortion rates go up though.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

There is no evidence that sexual education curbs pregnancies. There is much evidence that abortion rates go up though.

Teen pregnancies and abortions are lower than they have been in 30 years. Now I'm not positive, but I think there is more sex education in school now than there was in 1978. Do you have evidence to back up your claim that sex ed. leads to more abortions?

[MarchHare]

There is no evidence that sexual education curbs pregnancies.

Wrong wrong wrong.

The single most effective defense against unwanted pregnancies is teaching comprehensive sexual education which includes the proper use of different birth control methods.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...ncy-per-capita

As can be seen from that chart, the US with their backwards abstinence-only policy has by far the largest rate of teenage pregnancy amongst the 26 industrialized nations listed. The countries with the lowest rates are, respectively, Japan, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Sweden, all nations which have very progressive comprehensive sex education programs.

Here in Canada, the rate of teenage pregnancy has recently dropped to an all-time low. Proper education regarding contraceptive use is the cited reason:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...andHealth/home

The teenage pregnancy rate in Canada has hit an all-time low and the teen abortion rate has fallen to its lowest level in more than a decade, according to a new report.

The number of unwanted pregnancies among adolescents and young adults has fallen principally because they are using birth control, said Alex McKay, research co-ordinator at the Sex Information and Education Council of Canada, and author of the study.

"It's due to greater contraceptive use, not teens having less sex," he said.

Emphasis added.

There is much evidence that abortion rates go up though.

Also wrong. From the same link as above, the percentage of teenage pregnancies ended through abortion has indeed gone up, but the total number of abortions performed has been steadily dropping. Comprehensive sex education = greater use of contraceptives = fewer unwanted pregnancies = fewer abortions.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

"A baby is no less a baby when it is surrounded by uterus walls"

If you believe the above statement to be true it would be hard to find an issue in any election that would trump a child's life.

Really? I disagree. I think EVERY issue affects that child's life. I think education and contraception are reducing the number of abortions in this country dramatically. I think that kids born into horrible situations lead horrible lives and do horrible things to other people in the future. I think the abortion issue can be solved in other ways than by banning it.