Euro 2008 - UEFA

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

All these posts and you don't know who I'm cheering for? I'm a Brazil fan so I'm not too concerned about the Euros but still enjoy the tournament. And I do like Italy because I remember some great games that they have won in the past playing nice football. Whenever they play dull, boring football they always pay for it so they should stop it!

I was saying I thought Italy would win. This was of course before Cannavaro was hurt and before I realized Donadoni had no clue. And I also said and stand by the fact that Italy beat themselves and Holland weren't that good in the first game. Holland scored on counter-attacks, yes Italy does attack or else how can you counter-attack? Holland showed that they beat 3 very weak teams in the so-called group of death and then when confronted with a good team they folded.

I will disagree with you that Italy were poor in 2002 and 2006. In 2002 they scored in every game and were a few minutes away from getting to the QF and who knows how far after that. And in 2006 they played attacking style and won, scoring 12 goals in the process. In this tournament they never replaced a player like Totti.

There is a big difference between a good Italian team and a crapshow. The Italians aren't as negative as many make them out to be (their club sides are often quite attacking), but they played to stereotype yesterday. Worse Italian performance I've ever seen. You know Italian fans can be pretty delusional and never accept that Italy lost properly (always a conspiracy) but yesterday, they were embarrassed how the team played and have nothing to say.

As you said, let the good teams continue into the semifinals.

Fair enough. That post came off as more confrontational than I had intended but alas, there it is.

A fellow Brazil fan, thats nice to see. Brazil is well represented at the the Euro cup this year. As a matter of fact, a Brazilian is guaranteed to lift the Cup unless the Russians win. Every other remaining team has at least one Brazilian on it.

And thats not counting the numerous Brazilians that are on the eliminated teams.

That gets a bit old, but you know those generous Brazilians, spreading quality wherever they go.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Italy. In 2006 they were outplayed regularly by what should have been vastly inferior teams. And scoring in every game isnt really a valid metric if you're regularly getting outscored.

I've had bad experience with Italian fans who always vastly overestimate their teams chances. There is a big difference between faith, hope and blind delusion. Most Italian fans for the last little while have been afflicted with the lattermost and the WC win just threw fuel on the fire.

I wont comment on the Serie A because it is very different and generally favours a much more attacking style. I like the Serie A, but I dont watch very much of it, there are just too many other leagues and teams that I prefer.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Locke

They were brutal the 2 tournaments before it and they were brutal in the tournament after it.

Like I said earlier, their coach before WC 2006 was Giovanni "The Trap" Trapattoni... the master of Catenaccio (Ironically, he coached some very offensive club teams in the 1970s and 80s). He picked lousy teams (specifically, teams that can play his ugly trap style) and played ineffective football... since teams need to score to win. Losing 1-0 is the same as losing 3-2, its still zero points. Lippi's Italy was far from defensive... playing a minimum of 3 bonafide offensive players, and another 3 players capable of solid offense and counterattack. It was a complete tactical game, and very enjoyable to watch, save for the US game and Australia game... both of which they were down to 10 men for most of the game, and forced into uglier play to force a result. Donadoni went back to that well when Totti retired from international play, rather that continue what Lippi started.

I also mentioned that the squad Italy brought to this Euro just wasnt that good. Combined with Donadoni it was a recipe for disaster.

The roster itself (before Cannavaro was hurt) was actually not that bad, albeit old. Once Cannavaro went down, it exposed the lack of depth at CB. To make matters worse, Donadoni picked the worst two possible to start. That result immediately demoralized and put them behind the 8-ball. The biggest issue is the team was way too old. While some teams experimented with "unproven youngsters", Donadoni employed the Darryl Sutter method and opted for tired veterans with decent resumes. Juventus and Fiorentina alone boast about half a dozen players under 28 that could have performed at least as well as the has-beens did... the advantage would have been experience for WC 2010. Many eyebrows were raised on Riccardo Montolivo's exclusion in favor of Massimo Ambrosini... its pretty obvious why that was so dumb.

But like Thunderball is saying, the visual difference between a 'good' Italian squad and the epic crapshow we were forced to watch for weeks isnt all that different.

Actually, I never said that. I actually said there is a huge visual difference between a good Italian squad and what we saw here. This team lacked control, tact, finish and poise. Lippi teams may have been "boring", but they certainly never looked afraid of their opponents like this one did.

With Lippi expect to see more of the same except for jerseys with different names.

Expect to be half wrong. Lippi would never rely on Toni as a lone striker. While Lippi uses a 4-3-1-2 often, it is much more offensively staggered, and he does not force his skilled strikers to the sides to feed a target man. In a word, he does not use the catenaccio defensive style, except in extreme cases to defend a lead. In WC 2006, Toni was never alone. He was either with Gilardino or Iaquinta. Totti was the target man, but not to finish... rather, to QB the attack and provide quality passes through to the two strikers... rather than scraping passes from anywhere in the fringe to one guy. It's no coincidence the three goals Italy got came from special plays where the players didn't have to adhere to Donadoni's ridiculously outdated tactics... a corner kick, a spot kick and a free kick. However, it will be a very different team... and from the sounds of it... a much younger team.


Lets talk about some good teams now: (you mean some VERY lucky teams surely?)

Germany vs. Turkey. As some may know, Germany has a very large Turkish population so I expect this game to be an absolute war, and hopefully the Germans dont make the mistake that the Dutch made and underestimate their opponents.

A half-strength Turkey is like a cornered animal.

My only beef with Turkey is that while their play has been entertaining and dramatic they have played with little to no discipline, and it just may cost them.

In all fairness it should have cost them already but Croatia dropped the ball. If the Germans dont come prepared to put this beast to bed they'll experience the same fate as the Croatians, the Czechs and the Dutch.

Respect your opponent.

Whoever wins this game is the one that screws up less. Germany's secret weapon is not having Joachim Low anywhere near the sidelines. I fully expect the winner of this one to be hammered by Russia or Spain in the final. Despite Spain's total inability to break through Italy's weakened defense, they are the most complete team left.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Locke

Fair enough. That post came off as more confrontational than I had intended but alas, there it is.

A fellow Brazil fan, thats nice to see. Brazil is well represented at the the Euro cup this year. As a matter of fact, a Brazilian is guaranteed to lift the Cup unless the Russians win. Every other remaining team has at least one Brazilian on it.

And thats not counting the numerous Brazilians that are on the eliminated teams.

That gets a bit old, but you know those generous Brazilians, spreading quality wherever they go.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Italy. In 2006 they were outplayed regularly by what should have been vastly inferior teams. And scoring in every game isnt really a valid metric if you're regularly getting outscored.

I've had bad experience with Italian fans who always vastly overestimate their teams chances. There is a big difference between faith, hope and blind delusion. Most Italian fans for the last little while have been afflicted with the lattermost and the WC win just threw fuel on the fire.

I wont comment on the Serie A because it is very different and generally favours a much more attacking style. I like the Serie A, but I dont watch very much of it, there are just too many other leagues and teams that I prefer.

Heh all football fans are similar. There are many Brazillian fans who think they can just show up with their 6th best team should be given the World Cup. They're so annoying..

Can we get the Brazillians that play for European teams back on the Brazillian squad please? Brazil is awful right now. They haven't scored in 3 games and dont really look like scoring anytime soon. Could really use a guy like Senna!

[KTown]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Heh all football fans are similar. There are many Brazillian fans who think they can just show up with their 6th best team should be given the World Cup. They're so annoying..

Can we get the Brazillians that play for European teams back on the Brazillian squad please? Brazil is awful right now. They haven't scored in 3 games and dont really look like scoring anytime soon. Could really use a guy like Senna!

The same could be said about canadian hockey fans and hockey. Many of them think they can just show up and win.

What I'm trying to say is that if you are/have been the most dominate country for a long time, you will get fans who are just way to big of homers.

Don't you worry about Brazil they will be just fine. If I recall correctly they went through 4 coaches last qualifying sessions for WC 2006 due to there inconsistant play.

They will qualify for the World Cup and make it to the knockout stage for sure.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by KTown

The same could be said about canadian hockey fans and hockey. Many of them think they can just show up and win.

What I'm trying to say is that if you are/have been the most dominate country for a long time, you will get fans who are just way to big of homers.

Don't you worry about Brazil they will be just fine. If I recall correctly they went through 4 coaches last qualifying sessions for WC 2006 due to there inconsistant play.

They will qualify for the World Cup and make it to the knockout stage for sure.

Errrr they've never not made it out of the group stage I dont think (or maybe once). So if they don't make it'll be a great failure! And what if they don't make the World Cup at all! They've never misses one! Someone would be killed.

They need to go through about 4 more coaches this time too. DUNGA is hopeless and they're currently 5th! FIFTH. If they finish FIFTH they'll have to play someone like CANADA to get there!

[KTown]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Errrr they've never not made it out of the group stage I dont think (or maybe once). So if they don't make it'll be a great failure! And what if they don't make the World Cup at all! They've never misses one! Someone would be killed.

They need to go through about 4 more coaches this time too. DUNGA is hopeless and they're currently 5th! FIFTH. If they finish FIFTH they'll have to play someone like CANADA to get there!

It's still early they will be fine. You honestly think Paraguay will stay in the top 5. I don't think this will happen, they beat Brazil and then lost to Bolivia. If they were true contendors they would have taken out the last place Bolivians. As much as I'd love to see Brazil not make it, I just can't see it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Errrr they've never not made it out of the group stage I dont think (or maybe once). So if they don't make it'll be a great failure! And what if they don't make the World Cup at all! They've never misses one! Someone would be killed.

They need to go through about 4 more coaches this time too. DUNGA is hopeless and they're currently 5th! FIFTH. If they finish FIFTH they'll have to play someone like CANADA to get there!

Yeah, thats where they finished in 2002, that worked out okay....

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by KTown

It's still early they will be fine. You honestly think Paraguay will stay in the top 5. I don't think this will happen, they beat Brazil and then lost to Bolivia. If they were true contendors they would have taken out the last place Bolivians. As much as I'd love to see Brazil not make it, I just can't see it.

Paraguay makes it every World Cup! The last 3 or 4 I think.

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah, thats where they finished in 2002, that worked out okay....

Nooo not that low. I think 2nd or maybe 3rd.

[GirlySports]

SACKED!

Thunderball will be happy!

[Thunderball]

Edit: GirlySports beat me to it... and yes, I'm very happy!


A lot of Italian writers are saying he was let go not only because Italy didn't make the final four... but because his player selection was poor and he resorted to "catenaccio" to survive as long as they did. Italy apparently hired Donadoni to be more offensive and free flowing than Lippi was (by Italian standards, not Portugese/Braziliian standards), and he ended up being too much like Trapattoni. Up until the Euro, Italy played a 4-3-3 with 3 forwards. That's why Italy named 6 strikers to the team, rather than the typical 4-5 and an AM.

Some even went so far as to say the best game Italy played was actually the Holland one, because it was a counterattacking 4-3-3, despite the bad luck and critical lineup errors. They noted the game was ruined by the first offside goal, and the critical lineup errors... but that the system at least had the potential to be exciting, interesting, and most importantly, competitive. They also noted that Russia played Holland in a similar way. After that game, he panicked, he resorted to ugly defensive football, and took his roster notes from the Italian media. That is why he's gone.

[Thunderball]

And now the Italian Football Association (FIGC) is denying the report.

Not surprising... its only professional to wait for the week's meeting to dismiss him... but everyone knows its coming.

[Locke]

Alright Germany, lets do this. Go all the way to the Finals.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Locke

Alright Germany, lets do this. Go all the way to the Finals.

They say Turkey has 13 guys available, 2 keepers.
I think the Germans will be screwed when Turkey makes a substitution and sends their 3rd-string keeper in as a striker!

[VANFLAMESFAN]

I would love for the Germans to lose, but I just can't forsee any situation in which they don't trounce on a sub ridden Turkish side.

[josef]

i don´t trust the türkei - i wouldn´t be surprised if they pull out another upset

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by josef

i don´t trust the türkei - i wouldn´t be surprised if they pull out another upset

I was never shocked that they beat the Turks or the Czechs, it's just how they did it is what makes their run spectacular. In my pool, I had the Turks in the semi final, but losing to Portugal. Guess that won't be happening, but I was the only one in my pool with Turkey making it this far, so I guess I deserve a pat on the back or something.

[Scrambler]

Turkey controlling the play so far...

[Scrambler]

1-1 already, great game!

[PIMking]

I still cant belive that they didnt call a pen kick for the pen on Lahm. what a joke

[PIMking]

Turks just tie it up AGIAN.