Canadian Women leaving Christianity

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

We already have many competing belief systems and we aren't turning back, so this is moot.



Can you name a few of these many practices have effectively been outlawed because they are not seen as acceptable by a minority of people?
Your Islamic free-speech example -- I don't get it. There is a law that protects the practice of prohibiting free speech from criticism? First I heard of it, though I must admit I'm not familiar with the Human Rights Tribunal.

Nobody has told any of us that we can't criticize whatever we want, including free-speech practices in the Islamic community.

Search for Ezra Levant's recent scuffle in such Tribunal in Alberta, then search for Mclean's battle in a similar tribunal over an article written by Mark Steyn. Even though there is no explicit law outlawing such free speech both are being punished in the form of legal fees and their time by frivilous complaints made by Islamic Associations claiming to be offended. These tribunals are free for someone to lodge a complaint and very costly for a defendent to defend against.

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_pop...html?id=238276

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_pop...html?id=216124

Say what you want about either Erza Levant, Mark Steyn, or Mclean's magazine, but the very existance of these Tribunals effectively censors peolpe from publishing their opinions because of a fear of being taken in front of such tribunals. That's supression of free speech and the existance of the Tribunals is an example of the legal system seccoming to the lowest common denominator to meet the needs of a small minority.

With referencing competing belief systems I'm merely mentioning what has happened and do not argue that it's going to reverse itself.

[Hemi-Cuda]

if you graphed out the decline of religious believers over time and mapped it against the increase of scientific knowledge over time, the lines would probably be close to inversely proportional. religion is simply a tool for humans to fall back on to explain what we cannot. as we gain a greater understanding of our world and the universe, religion just isn't needed

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Search for Ezra Levant's recent scuffle in such Tribunal in Alberta, then search for Mclean's battle in a similar tribunal over an article written by Mark Steyn. Even though there is no explicit law outlawing such free speech both are being punished in the form of legal fees and their time by frivilous complaints made by Islamic Associations claiming to be offended. These tribunals are free for someone to lodge a complaint and very costly for a defendent to defend against.

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_pop...html?id=238276

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_pop...html?id=216124

Say what you want about either Erza Levant, Mark Steyn, or Mclean's magazine, but the very existance of these Tribunals effectively censors peolpe from publishing their opinions because of a fear of being taken in front of such tribunals. That's supression of free speech and the existance of the Tribunals is an example of the legal system seccoming to the lowest common denominator to meet the needs of a small minority.

Well then I'm with you on this one. The people who make up these complaints and cost the "complainee" money should have to foot the bill if the person (the writers in these cases) are found to have done nothing wrong. They should probably kick in a little extra for their troubles while they are at it.

That being said, these are extremely rare cases and not really indicative of anything other than the existence of some grouchy and dimwitted activist groups and a tribunal that apparently needs some new rules. And frivolous legal actions aren't anything new.

And good ol' Levant -- self-promotion/aggrandizement even in the "court room". These are his opening words.

My name is Ezra Levant. Before this government interrogation begins, I will make a statement. When the Western Standard magazine printed the Danish cartoons of Muhammad two years ago, I was the publisher. It was the proudest moment of my public life. I would do it again today. In fact, I did do it again today. Though the Western Standard, sadly, no longer publishes a print edition, I posted the cartoons this morning on my website, ezralevant.com.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That being said, these are extremely rare cases and not really indicative of anything other than the existence of some grouchy and dimwitted activist groups and a tribunal that apparently needs some new rules. And frivolous legal actions aren't anything new.

No not entirely new, but I'd argue that it has increased exponetially since the 1960s.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

No not entirely new, but I'd argue that it has increased exponetially since the 1960s.

Perhaps, but I'm sure most of it was between people of similar (white, Christian, Canadian) belief systems.

I think it's bull that Steyn and Levant had to be called on the carpet for what they wrote and I can sort of see a connection to the topic at hand, but frivolous lawsuits and whatnot, I don't see a connection between them in general and an increase in that and a decrease in faith, or a move away from Christianity.

[Cheese]

If it was fact that a move away from Christianity caused greater control by other groups...whether that be big business or big government...how do we explain the vast majority of secular Europe? Is it controlled by Big Brother? Do we see Lawyers controlling large tracts of Europe?
Sweden, Holland, Denmark, France, Britain and Germany are largely secular, yet very much differing nations...how do we see the lack of influence by the Church as harmful to its people? Does the fact that some of these nations are Socialist matter?
I simply dont buy that a move away from theistic control is anything but positive.

Theists are men and women of departing generations. Fields such as anthropology, psychology, physiology, ethics, sociology, paleontology, and biology have grown unhindered in the last 50 years as theistic roots have been ripped away from the minds of our youth. There is NO higher authority in the world IMHO than science.
Mysticism and control of young minds and educational systems, securing the service of the press, bullying publishers and booksellers, censoring public libraries is being removed from the grips of Christianity....for that we must be thankful to atheists.

[photon]

Originally Posted by llama64

I do wonder though, without a religious system, what social mechanism will take up the charge of providing the moral standard for society.

Education of why we should act morally, where our morals actually come from, that sort of thing.

This idea that religion provides the moral standard isn't supported IMO, as it's been shown the more religious a society is the worse off it is (in terms of things like STDs, teen pregnancy, teen births, homicides, etc). Not saying religion causes those problems, just that there's a negative correlation between how religious a society is and the overall quality of life.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Cheese

If it was fact that a move away from Christianity caused greater control by other groups...whether that be big business or big government...how do we explain the vast majority of secular Europe? Is it controlled by Big Brother? Do we see Lawyers controlling large tracts of Europe?
Sweden, Holland, Denmark, France, Britain and Germany are largely secular, yet very much differing nations...how do we see the lack of influence by the Church as harmful to its people? Does the fact that some of these nations are Socialist matter?
I simply dont buy that a move away from theistic control is anything but positive.

Theists are men and women of departing generations. Fields such as anthropology, psychology, physiology, ethics, sociology, paleontology, and biology have grown unhindered in the last 50 years as theistic roots have been ripped away from the minds of our youth. There is NO higher authority in the world IMHO than science.
Mysticism and control of young minds and educational systems, securing the service of the press, bullying publishers and booksellers, censoring public libraries is being removed from the grips of Christianity....for that we must be thankful to atheists.

The state filled the vacuum in those countries too. The secondary urges dominate politics in Europe, whether it's the 35 hour work week, the non-firing legislation of those under 25, the state-ensured pensions, the government mandated vacation time, the list goes on and on. The belief that this life is it leads to a disturbing pattern of hedonism and later on civilizational decline. Funny thing is all of the above mentioned countries have fertility rates below that of replacement, some of them as low as 1.3-1.4. Meaning they'll manage to wipe their citizenry off the map in a few generations. They have lower fertility due to increased abortion rates and lower marriage rates as well. Who will pay for such lavish old-age security entitlements once two thirds of the populace is beyond retirement? As far as producing new generations of offspring is concerned, religious states seem to be doing a better job.

No people = No advancements in scientific knowledge

[peter12]

Why does this just seem like the regular ebb and flow of religious belief in human society? Secularism can appear to be dominant only to fall to religion. This has happened before.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Meaning they'll manage to wipe their citizenry off the map in a few generations.

Do you really think Sweden (for example) is going to be empty in, say, 80 years?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

The state filled the vacuum in those countries too. The secondary urges dominate politics in Europe, whether it's the 35 hour work week, the non-firing legislation of those under 25, the state-ensured pensions, the government mandated vacation time, the list goes on and on. The belief that this life is it leads to a disturbing pattern of hedonism and later on civilizational decline. Funny thing is all of the above mentioned countries have fertility rates below that of replacement, some of them as low as 1.3-1.4. Meaning they'll manage to wipe their citizenry off the map in a few generations. They have lower fertility due to increased abortion rates and lower marriage rates as well. Who will pay for such lavish old-age security entitlements once two thirds of the populace is beyond retirement? As far as producing new generations of offspring is concerned, religious states seem to be doing a better job.

No people = No advancements in scientific knowledge

um...so you are saying that a strong church helps create a larger population and stops hedonistic pleasures?
Why cant a government simply enact laws whereby parents get paid to have children or dont have to pay taxes for "x" years? (See Quebec for partial answers) The Hedonistic part I dont buy...simply look at the number of Priests getting nailed for past issues with children. Of course Im assuming that they got pleasure from what they were doing.
I simply cant imagine any era that was more in decline than when the church ruled with an iron fist!

[troutman]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why does this just seem like the regular ebb and flow of religious belief in human society? Secularism can appear to be dominant only to fall to religion. This has happened before.

What period are you talking about? In the last 100 years (evolution, relativity), the growth in the "non-religious" category has been exponential and consistent.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Cheese

um...so you are saying that a strong church helps create a larger population and stops hedonistic pleasures?
Why cant a government simply enact laws whereby parents get paid to have children or dont have to pay taxes for "x" years? (See Quebec for partial answers) The Hedonistic part I dont buy...simply look at the number of Priests getting nailed for past issues with children. Of course Im assuming that they got pleasure from what they were doing.
I simply cant imagine any era that was more in decline than when the church ruled with an iron fist!

I'm sure our society will be quite a fine place to live in with offspring born to parents for financial planning purposes.

What I meant when I used the term hedonism in Europe was rather a word to describe treating life as an experience soley for one's own personal gratification. Combine millions of people doing exactly that and you get low productivity, low birth rates, state envolvement in every facet of life ensuring that people do the least amount of bothersome work as possible, and societal decline. In other words as a society they're doing it to themselves. Add in external threats that post-Christians couldn't bother to get off of their computers/couch/beach/bed/etc to defend against and Europe will collapse (Afterall it's other people dying, who cares? Why would they deny themselves time spent living life to the fullest, for the sake of other people unrelated by blood to them?).

[Thor]

Originally Posted by jammies

People, people, we are not addressing the central issue here:

Does this portend a crisis in the supply of sexy Catholic school-girls?

This is a very serious issue that must not be treated lightly

[peter12]

Originally Posted by troutman

What period are you talking about? In the last 100 years (evolution, relativity), the growth in the "non-religious" category has been exponential and consistent.

In the early stages of the Enlightenment, secular values were definitely the norm among the average person.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I'm sure our society will be quite a fine place to live in with offspring born to parents for financial planning purposes.

I'm no anthropologist, but I think "financial planning" (in the form of 'let's have as many children as possible to share the work and look after us when we're old') was a motivation for people to have children pretty much since people started having children. It still is in many places. Not that I necessarily agree with tax-breaks for child bearing, but still.

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

What I meant when I used the term hedonism in Europe was rather a word to describe treating life as an experience soley for one's own personal gratification. Combine millions of people doing exactly that and you get low productivity, low birth rates, state envolvement in every facet of life ensuring that people do the least amount of bothersome work as possible, and societal decline. In other words as a society they're doing it to themselves.

"treating life as an experience soley for one's own personal gratification"? What's that mean? That they only care about themselves, or that they don't do anything for supernatural purposes?

Northern Europe/Scandinavia are the healthiest, wealthiest, best-educated, longest-lived and most peaceful societies in the world. They wouldn't be there if they were all hopelessly selfish.

[Sparks]

Originally Posted by peter12

In the early stages of the Enlightenment, secular values were definitely the norm among the average person.

I don't think there would be much argument that religious people outnumbered non-religious in the late 1700s - early 1800s. The vast majority would have been religious. I'm not sure what you mean specifically by "secular values" - which did they hold and then revert back to non-secular values sometime before the present day (as your argument suggests)?

Regardless, I don't think the religious beliefs of most people then (or perhaps at any time in human history) could compare in any way to the popularity of agnosticism and athiesm today.