Fitness freak?

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by Azure

You seem to think that because YOU are making great gains, WITHOUT the use of supplements, everyone else should be able to do the same thing.

When did I say that?

You said you were making gains with supplements. I said I was without them, and that it means nothing, because if you put in the work you will achieve goals, supplements or not.

Originally Posted by Azure

As I'm sure you know, each person is different, each lifestyle is different, and for people associated with office work where it is VERY difficult to find healthy food, HIGH in protein....the shake CAN help.

I'm not going to argue about how much protein any one person has in their diet. I'm not going to argue that protein shakes have protein. It's a matter of you're better off changing your diet to increase your protein intake, if you know for a fact you need more. I quoted literature written by professionals saying athletes should change their diet, and not take protein supplements. I'm going to go with the professionals.

Originally Posted by Azure

I eat healthy, I 'try' to get enough protein from food sources....but over 50% of the time that is impossible to achieve.

Protein isn't just from meats. Protein is everywhere. There's protein in fruit. I don't know how you came to the conclusion you need more protein, but I hope it wasn't just from reading labels. Consult a nutritionist about these things!

Just like not enough protein isn't good, neither is excess. I hope you realize that.

Originally Posted by Azure

Nice to see you avoid my entire post. I never said anything about substituting for a healthy diet. I merely pointed out how a protein shake CAN help.

Perhaps you should address the contents of my post. But then again, you can't....because that would be over-stepping your limit and admitting that protein shakes can work.

I don't know where this is coming from, but I'm trying to consult all of your points. Most of the things I've been saying are generalizations. I don't mean you do or do not do these things, nor do I mean anyone else in particular.

Originally Posted by Azure

Has anyone here said that they started using supplements because some weight jockey at their gym told them about it? No. So why don't you quit stereotyping and shut the hell up about what kind of 'crap' product people are putting into their body?

Again, I'm generalizing. I know many people who start using supplements because some random weight lifter guy told them about it.

Originally Posted by Azure

But Creatine has been around a long time. I've talked to 'many' certified fitness trainers who advocate its use. It is a 100% natural supplement, something our 'own' body produces. So quit generalizing.

There's aspects, like how it causes muscles to retain water, that are potentially dangerous. Here's what Kybosh said:

Originally Posted by Kybosh

I'm on the fence about creatine. I don't take it or any other supplements and just try my best to eat as well as I can. Store bought creatine is chemically the same as that which is produced in the body. I'm not sure if orally ingested creatine metabolizes in the same way though. One of my concerns with all these nitrogenous supplements is the extra stress that might be placed on the liver and kidneys over time. Another thing is that these supplements are not subject to the same scrutiny that pharmaceuticals are. Just because it is naturally produced in the body doesn't mean it is ok for you to ingest.

He makes some fine points.

Originally Posted by Azure

Also, can you cite your sources that tell you that Creatine does not increase energy levels, strength, endurance and recovery rates?

I said Creatine increases energy levels of the Creatine Phosphate energy system. This system provides the muscles with ATP within the first 10 ish seconds of high-intensity exercise. Here's the textbook:

Originally Posted by Howley & Franks, 2007

It is unclear if this extra weight (referring to that caused by water retention) could impede, rather than enhance, performance in weight-bearing activities...

It does not mention anything about strength, endurance or recovery rates. I can only assume they are unaffected.

Originally Posted by Azure

Who said anything about a sugar pill?

What the hell does it have to do with this thread?

I was alluding to the fact that Creatine is, in my opinion, just a placebo.

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by Azure

Just some simple research...

Links? I hope those don't come from a site selling Creatine.

There is no doubt Creatine has an affect on you. The fact that an average guy who works 9-5 and goes to the gym 3 times a week thinks he needs to take supplements to better his performance is what astounds me.

There are likely side-effects from most supplements. If you're an olympic athlete looking for an edge you'll accept the possible harm these supplements do to your body. It's like steroids. Why would an average person use them? I don't know.

The fact there is conflicting reports about Creatine's benefits tells me we don't know enough about it to be sure of anything. If you're looking for an edge that you think Creatine will give you, why don't you save your money and yourself from potential harm and just put in a little extra work or better your diet a little?

In my opinion, it's just an easy way out.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

When did I say that?

That is the understanding I am getting from your assumptions.

You obviously have the ability to eat healthy as much as possible. I can't....as there are times where I have no choice but to simply grab the healthiest food available at the time....most often Subway, just to not miss a meal.

You said you were making gains with supplements. I said I was without them, and that it means nothing, because if you put in the work you will achieve goals, supplements or not.

Sure. I don't disagree with that.

The work would include a properly nourished diet, with the right amount of macro-nutrients. Is that possible to achieve strictly through food? Absolutely. But like Muta said, most of us 'try' to eat healthy, but at times we can't.

Protein isn't just from meats. Protein is everywhere. There's protein in fruit. I don't know how you came to the conclusion you need more protein, but I hope it wasn't just from reading labels. Consult a nutritionist about these things!

No kidding. And I did talk to my nutritionist about it - she advocated the use of a protein shake based on the goals I was trying to accomplish, along with the access I have to healthy foods.

I don't know where this is coming from, but I'm trying to consult all of your points. Most of the things I've been saying are generalizations. I don't mean you do or do not do these things, nor do I mean anyone else in particular.

You seem to get high from calling supplements crap. You've done it numerous times throughout the thread.

Why? I pointed out the idea behind a protein shake...how it 'can' benefit you.

Not to mention the fact that Whey Protein contains high levels of ALL the essential amino acids NOT produced by the body. Plus, foods with low amino acid content, BUT high in protein, are poor equivalents, as the body will remove the amino acids obtained which in turn will convert the protein into fats and carbohydrates, like you said earlier....but you left out the important details. That is why protein shakes are so successful, because they contain the essential balance of amino acids needed for a high degree of net protein utilization.

You never responded.

Again, I'm generalizing. I know many people who start using supplements because some random weight lifter guy told them about it.

Not only are you generalizing, but you seem to accuse everyone in here of doing the above.

CaramonLS pointed out earlier in the thread that Creatine helps him. Obviously you have no idea what kind of progress he has made.

There's aspects, like how it causes muscles to retain water, that are potentially dangerous. Here's what Kybosh said:

There is actually a wrestler who died because of his muscle retaining water.

He tried to cut around 12 lbs in one day to get in at a certain weight bracket and died from heart failure. Somehow the use of Creatine was involved.

So there are 'risks' involved....with 'how' you use it. It should certainly be common sense to anyone with half a brain that cutting 12 lbs of water in one day probably isn't the best thing for your body.

It does not mention anything about strength, endurance or recovery rates. I can only assume they are unaffected.

Wrong.

Looks it up....Creatine has been proven to increase strength, endurance AND recovery rates.

I was alluding to the fact that Creatine is, in my opinion, just a placebo.

Yes....I guess the creatine your body creates as a natural function is ALSO just a placebo.

Like you've told everyone else....educate yourself before you state your opinion, because scientific research has shown that Creatine DOES work.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

Links? I hope those don't come from a site selling Creatine.

See thats your problem.

You seem to think only the supplement sites will say something like that. Sure there are ads who talk about 'impossible' growth using Creatine, even if it has been scientifically proven to work.

http://www.trulyhuge.com/news/tips63jc.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...eatinecomb.htm

There is no doubt Creatine has an affect on you.

Really? I thought you said this earlier?

Edit: If creatine has any affect on you whatsoever, that affect is simply squeezing a little bit more performance out of you, not changing your capabilities.

I don't care what some random person says, I'm interested in the facts. I initially came to this thread looking for some facts about Creatine. Since no one provided any information about how it helps gain muscle mass outside of assisting in the Creatine Phosphate energy system, I looked into it further and have come to the conclusion that it does not assist significantly in everyday weightlifter's performance nor will it assist in muscle mass gain.

Creatine, generally, has negligible effects on the everyday weight lifter. If there was some anomally where one person took it and could lift 10 more pounds on the bench press and do the same amount of reps as before taking it, it would not help them gain muscle mass. It's simply helping the Creatine Phosphate energy system.

Ohhhh....facts indeed.

Changing your opinion after actually researching the subject at hand? Pretty funny from someone who was calling everyone else ignorant to start with.

The fact that an average guy who works 9-5 and goes to the gym 3 times a week thinks he needs to take supplements to better his performance is what astounds me.

Generalizing again. Your ignorance astounds me. Especially given how many times you've been wrong in this thread alone.

There are likely side-effects from most supplements. If you're an olympic athlete looking for an edge you'll accept the possible harm these supplements do to your body. It's like steroids. Why would an average person use them? I don't know.

Again you're wrong.

Steroids are not even comparable to Creatine. One is a 'natural' substance, something your body produces 'naturally.' The other? I don't think I have to explain it.

There is a reason one is banned, and the other isn't. Because frankly, in order to ban the use of Creatine, one would have to ban all the foods that contain it.

For some reason you can't wrap your head around that.

The fact there is conflicting reports about Creatine's benefits tells me we don't know enough about it to be sure of anything. If you're looking for an edge that you think Creatine will give you, why don't you save your money and yourself from potential harm and just put in a little extra work or better your diet a little?

There are not conflicting reports.

You have YET to show me ANY evidence that Creatine does not work.

In my opinion, it's just an easy way out.

That is your opinion.

Scientific experts disagree with you.

And here I thought you were only interested in the 'facts.'

I'm interested in the facts.

Its getting pretty pathetic the way generalize everyone into the same boat. We are NOT the idiots at your local gym trying to get you to use numerous different supplements because they saw some ad in a muscle magazine talking about the HUGE gains you'll make using their product.

The original point was about Creatine; does it work? Scientific research have SHOWN it to work. Get it?

Good, now leave. And thanks for ruining my thread.

[Ch40s]

Ruining your thread? Is this the peak of your day?

I started by asking a few question about Creatine. They went unanswered. I started to think some of you just popped the stuff because someone somewhere said they worked.

The links you provided both sell supplements. Yea real trustworthy.

I'm going to go ahead and trust people who have been in the field for years, like my class professor and Coleen Parsons-Olsen who gave a lecture.

You can feel free to take the easy way out with your pseudo-health products all you want. The fact that you're defending a product you initially knew little about (until you researched - real trustworthy sites if they're trying to convince you to buy their product...). You didn't even know what the Creatine Phosphate energy system was.

Smoke, eat McDonalds, do whatever the hell you want. I'll trust the experts, not some meathead with a big gut at the gym.

[J.G]

My workout schedule has varied over the past couple years. After moving back to Calgary after university, I found I had to adjust my schedule as I didn't have nearly the same amount of time to workout.

The thing I'm most interested in is strength training, and which muscle groups work best together. I see a few here have posted which groups they train togther. Personally I change it up quite frequently, and haven't yet settled on one I'm particularily fond of.

Right now I'm on and off between cardio days and weight training days. My weight training goes:

Chest/Shoulders (horrible combination, switching that out this week)
Biceps/Triceps
Back/Legs

So any suggestions for combining muscle groups? I'm thinking of switching the legs with the shoulders, so do Chest/Legs, and Back/Shoulders.

As well I am interested if clearing up one rumour I've heard. I'm currently trying to add a few pounds of muscle as opposed to losing weight, and days when I combine cardio with weight training (in the same session), I've heard that cardio after weights is better for trying to gain weight. I have no idea if there is any truth whatsover behind that statement. Anyone here know?

[Azure]

There are certain professionals that say you should never combine cardio with your weight training.

I do....and I make gains, but I think I've hit a plateau of some kind, so I have to switch up certain stuff.

Try one way, see how your body responds. Give it a good two weeks, and if you don't see any progress, switch it up.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by J.G

As well I am interested if clearing up one rumour I've heard. I'm currently trying to add a few pounds of muscle as opposed to losing weight, and days when I combine cardio with weight training (in the same session), I've heard that cardio after weights is better for trying to gain weight. I have no idea if there is any truth whatsover behind that statement. Anyone here know?

I have allways heard that to lose weight you should lift first. Then do your cardio. The logic being you burn up your stored food energy on lifting weights. When you do your cardio you will be burning fat. So if your trying to gain weight? Cardio after lifting is probably not a good idea. If I were you. I would just limit my cardio to walking a few times a week.

[maverickeastwood]

Does lifting a case of beer one beer at time constitute as excersize?

[Dynasty12]

To the assclown knocking creatine.

I'm a bit tips but I'll go at er anyway.

It's a great supp to take if your serious about improving your muscle mass.. It stores water which helps hydrate the muscles being worked which means quicker recovery and without a doubt bigger lifts.

Obviously if I'm lifting an extra 10 pounds for that 8 or 10 reps its going to tear more tissue then the lighter weight....

There is no ing health risks, creatine is produced in the body. Hell there is creatine in the steak i just ate. however when on creatine you do have to consume a large amount of water everyday..

lets talk weights bud.

edit: Why wouldnt someone take protien? you seem to be the big weight head here. If I'm taking a protien supp like ISO XP for insane it's going to be in my system 30 mins have I consume the shake. When the most important time to get protien into your body? RIGHT AFTER YOUR WORKOUT. Tell me where I can get 50 G of protien right after i workout?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dynasty12

RIGHT AFTER YOUR WORKOUT. Tell me where I can get 50 G of protien right after i workout?

You can.

But you gotta consume a pretty insane amount of calories to get it.

Unless you want to eat 2 cans of tuna/salmon after every workout. Protein doesn't absorb as fast though.

Which sorta contradicts the idea of having a protein shake right after the workout, as the protein shake is absorbed quicker by the body, and THAN eating a meal about 30-60 min after the workout.

Good post, BTW.

[Dynasty12]

Originally Posted by Azure

You can.

But you gotta consume a pretty insane amount of calories to get it.

Unless you want to eat 2 cans of tuna/salmon after every workout. Protein doesn't absorb as fast though.

Which sorta contradicts the idea of having a protein shake right after the workout, as the protein shake is absorbed quicker by the body, and THAN eating a meal about 30-60 min after the workout.

Good post, BTW.

And who is going to be able to down tuna right after they pump? It's so simple to make a shake hence the reason they are so popular. Diet is so important for someone who is serious about working out. I see way to many people who have poor marcros and just dont really care enough.

They work their tail off in the gym but their diet is so poor. Sleep is so overlooked aswell. Without a good diet/sleep your not going to see any results.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dynasty12

And who is going to be able to down tuna right after they pump? It's so simple to make a shake hence the reason they are so popular. Diet is so important for someone who is serious about working out. I see way to many people who have poor marcros and just dont really care enough.

They work their tail off in the gym but their diet is so poor. Sleep is so overlooked aswell. Without a good diet/sleep your not going to see any results.

Absolutely.

And it isn't exactly healthy to eat tuna more than once per day. I know a lot of dietitians who have even told their patients to lay off the tuna as much as possible.

I simply couldn't do without a protein shake. I've tried to set up a diet to intake the most protein possible, but at times that is impossible.

I do NOT eat Mcdonald's everyday....only fast food I've had in the past 6 months is Subway - maybe 3 times. I don't drink, I get enough sleep, but I know for a fact that without the protein shake I will not pick up muscle mass, nor will I make any significant gains.

[CaptainCrunch]

You know, a little milk, 1 can of tuna, 1 T-bone steak without the bone. Toss it in a blender, add some fruit, and you have the worlds first multi-purpose fitness shake.

patent pending.

[Dynasty12]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You know, a little milk, 1 can of tuna, 1 T-bone steak without the bone. Toss it in a blender, add some fruit, and you have the worlds first multi-purpose fitness shake.

patent pending.

That would throw my macros off. Protien shakes are also good because they arnt super high in cals/carbs/fats...

No thanks.

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/food/numbers1.html

Consumption of protein increased by about 10 per cent between 1992 and 2002, (from approximately 99 grams per person per day to about 109 grams in 2002). Statistics Canada says protein consumption rose faster in the early part of the decade and was stable between 1998 and 2002.

Originally Posted by http://www.healthgoods.com/education/nutrition_information/Nutrition_for_Athletes/protein.htm

For athletes in training, the recommended protein intake is .5-.9 g/lb body weight. For example, a 150-lb athlete should consume 75-135 g of protein (0.5-0.9 g/lb body weight x 150 lb= 75-135 g of protein). A diet providing 12-15% of its calories from protein should meet this requirement if you are consuming enough calories to meet your energy needs. Protein intake in excess of these requirements is usually not necessary and does not seem to have any benefits for either strength or endurance training.

Originally Posted by http://www.vegsoc.org/info/protein.html

Excess protein may also be converted to fat and stored.

Azure, you make it sound like it's impossible to get the amount of protein you need as a regular weight lifter from diet alone. One egg has 6.5g. It's easy.

Now as for drinking protein shakes because it's easier, well, I guess that's up to you isn't it. Professionals I've talked to recommend staying away from stuff like this, so I'm going to. Here's a story I found interesting:

Originally Posted by http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060722115010AAtv5xi

Avoid - Stay away from - Don't use --- Shaklee protein powder

My friend (now dead from botched heart surgery) used this product every morning, for 3 years. . . he had high blood pressure and high cholesterol - then a stroke . . . while he was quite physically active, and drinking this laboratory created stuff.

When the stroke did not kill him, he stopped all the artificial daily supplements (protein powder, etc) - and 'curative drugs' for BP, etc. and his body amazingly achieved 'normal' function levels. . .

I feel that the rampant use of man made, dietary supplements, is one of the root causes of many of today's illnesses. If the earth did not create and support it, I won't eat it. . .

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by Dynasty12

To the assclown knocking creatine.

Easy there killer.

Originally Posted by Dynasty12

I'm a bit tips but I'll go at er anyway.

It's a great supp to take if your serious about improving your muscle mass.. It stores water which helps hydrate the muscles being worked which means quicker recovery and without a doubt bigger lifts.

Obviously if I'm lifting an extra 10 pounds for that 8 or 10 reps its going to tear more tissue then the lighter weight....

There is no ing health risks, creatine is produced in the body. Hell there is creatine in the steak i just ate. however when on creatine you do have to consume a large amount of water everyday..

lets talk weights bud.

edit: Why wouldnt someone take protien? you seem to be the big weight head here. If I'm taking a protien supp like ISO XP for insane it's going to be in my system 30 mins have I consume the shake. When the most important time to get protien into your body? RIGHT AFTER YOUR WORKOUT. Tell me where I can get 50 G of protien right after i workout?

No health risks? Yea, sure, I'm going to take your word for that..

Pop whatever powder/pills you want to. I'll take the professional's opinion, which is to avoid stuff like that.

It's quite ironic that you seem so concerned about diet, Azure, when you're willing to take artificially manufactured powder stuff you know very little about. Seems to me that may be potentially detrimental, versus changing your diet slightly so 35% of the calories come from protein, opposed to the average persons 30%.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

[/color][/font]

[/color]

Azure, you make it sound like it's impossible to get the amount of protein you need as a regular weight lifter from diet alone. One egg has 6.5g. It's easy.

Now as for drinking protein shakes because it's easier, well, I guess that's up to you isn't it. Professionals I've talked to recommend staying away from stuff like this, so I'm going to. Here's a story I found interesting:

Which is why I only use protein powder that has a name behind it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ch40s

It's quite ironic that you seem so concerned about diet, Azure, when you're willing to take artificially manufactured powder stuff you know very little about. Seems to me that may be potentially detrimental, versus changing your diet slightly so 35% of the calories come from protein, opposed to the average persons 30%.

Again, why are you automatically assuming that I know 'little' about it?

Where is this coming from?

I talked to both my doctor and nutritionist about the powder I use....both recommend it.

[Ch40s]

Originally Posted by Azure

Again, why are you automatically assuming that I know 'little' about it?

Where is this coming from?

I talked to both my doctor and nutritionist about the powder I use....both recommend it.

The fact that even professionals know little about the long-term effects of supplements like Creatine is where it's coming from.

Forgiven me for being stubborn, but I have a really hard time believing a qualified nutritionist would recommend protein powder.

Some of the searching I've done in the past while with regards to this thread has really reinforced my ideals about avoiding these supplement fads.

Here's another quote:

Another common way men attempt to increase physical strength and size is by eating large amounts of protein . That is where the bowls of hardboiled eggs and the protein powders come in. Many people think that you have to consume a lot of protein in order to build muscle. The truth is that most Americans get more than an adequate amount of protein per day. You only need a small amount per day and the rest is turned into carbohydrates for energy, burned directly for energy, or stored as fat, because your body has no way of storing excess protein. If most of that protein is being used for energy, you might as well cut down on your protein intake and go for cheaper sources of energy (it is more difficult for your body to convert protein into energy, and high protein foods are much more expensive than other foods)..