The Pope condemns the climate change prophets of doom

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Thor

I love the pope, he does more to convert people to anti-theism than anything else in this world.

No, that would be the Catholic Church in general.

I do doubt that though....I think the religious idiots down south....hard core evangelical extremists do a LOT more.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

and when was the last time you actually read the words of the Pope, and not some crack reporter's take on them with their own agenda.

This is the link where the Pope speaks about the environment.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...-peace_en.html

This is what he says:

The family, the human community and the environment
7. The family needs a home, a fit environment in which to develop its proper relationships. For the human family, this home is the earth, the environment that God the Creator has given us to inhabit with creativity and responsibility. We need to care for the environment: it has been entrusted to men and women to be protected and cultivated with responsible freedom, with the good of all as a constant guiding criterion. Human beings, obviously, are of supreme worth vis-à-vis creation as a whole. Respecting the environment does not mean considering material or animal nature more important than man. Rather, it means not selfishly considering nature to be at the complete disposal of our own interests, for future generations also have the right to reap its benefits and to exhibit towards nature the same responsible freedom that we claim for ourselves. Nor must we overlook the poor, who are excluded in many cases from the goods of creation destined for all. Humanity today is rightly concerned about the ecological balance of tomorrow. It is important for assessments in this regard to be carried out prudently, in dialogue with experts and people of wisdom, uninhibited by ideological pressure to draw hasty conclusions, and above all with the aim of reaching agreement on a model of sustainable development capable of ensuring the well-being of all while respecting environmental balances. If the protection of the environment involves costs, they should be justly distributed, taking due account of the different levels of development of various countries and the need for solidarity with future generations. Prudence does not mean failing to accept responsibilities and postponing decisions; it means being committed to making joint decisions after pondering responsibly the road to be taken, decisions aimed at strengthening that covenant between human beings and the environment, which should mirror the creative love of God, from whom we come and towards whom we are journeying.
8. In this regard, it is essential to “sense” that the earth is “our common home” and, in our stewardship and service to all, to choose the path of dialogue rather than the path of unilateral decisions. Further international agencies may need to be established in order to confront together the stewardship of this “home” of ours; more important, however, is the need for ever greater conviction about the need for responsible cooperation. The problems looming on the horizon are complex and time is short. In order to face this situation effectively, there is a need to act in harmony. One area where there is a particular need to intensify dialogue between nations is that of the stewardship of the earth's energy resources. The technologically advanced countries are facing two pressing needs in this regard: on the one hand, to reassess the high levels of consumption due to the present model of development, and on the other hand to invest sufficient resources in the search for alternative sources of energy and for greater energy efficiency. The emerging counties are hungry for energy, but at times this hunger is met in a way harmful to poor countries which, due to their insufficient infrastructures, including their technological infrastructures, are forced to undersell the energy resources they do possess. At times, their very political freedom is compromised by forms of protectorate or, in any case, by forms of conditioning which appear clearly humiliating.

He does not take sides. He says that ideologies should not direct the debate. He says the experts must help us find a model of sustainable development. He says the enviroment must be respected.

The venomous hatred being spewed from some posters says a lot more about the posters than it does about the Pope or the Catholic Church.

So I guess your suggesting that the God of the RCC is not an Omni-God? In other words a God who did not or could not foresee the problems that he created in advance? Or did he foresee it and ignore the fact that he could also foresee his creation destroying it? Does the pope have a direct phone line to this God...and if he does why doesnt he just call in a favor? Hey God....yep...um this is the Pope...yep....well um...you see Id like to call in a favor...uh huh...you know this whole thing with the earths environment imploding...uh huh...well could you wiggle your nose or extend your antennae and stop the problem...we promise we wont do it again!...sorry this is the year of the Muslim, I cant help you Christians today...call back in 09.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

So I guess your suggesting that the God of the RCC is not an Omni-God? In other words a God who did not or could not foresee the problems that he created in advance? Or did he foresee it and ignore the fact that he could also foresee his creation destroying it? Does the pope have a direct phone line to this God...and if he does why doesnt he just call in a favor? Hey God....yep...um this is the Pope...yep....well um...you see Id like to call in a favor...uh huh...you know this whole thing with the earths environment imploding...uh huh...well could you wiggle your nose or extend your antennae and stop the problem...we promise we wont do it again!...sorry this is the year of the Muslim, I cant help you Christians today...call back in 09.

If you assume the Pope has a direct link to God, that is.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Cheese

So I guess your suggesting that the God of the RCC is not an Omni-God? In other words a God who did not or could not foresee the problems that he created in advance? Or did he foresee it and ignore the fact that he could also foresee his creation destroying it? Does the pope have a direct phone line to this God...and if he does why doesnt he just call in a favor? Hey God....yep...um this is the Pope...yep....well um...you see Id like to call in a favor...uh huh...you know this whole thing with the earths environment imploding...uh huh...well could you wiggle your nose or extend your antennae and stop the problem...we promise we wont do it again!...sorry this is the year of the Muslim, I cant help you Christians today...call back in 09.

Your logic can't win!

[jammies]

The Pope is misguided, not evil. There is a difference.

Hating the misguided - that's evil right there. Some of you might want to chew on that a bit and get down from your positions of "moral superiority" before your hypocrisy topples you from the outside.

[kipperfan]

This thread is gold.. Cheese you're one funny man. I agree with you BTW.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by jammies

The Pope is misguided, not evil. There is a difference.

Hating the misguided - that's evil right there. Some of you might want to chew on that a bit and get down from your positions of "moral superiority" before your hypocrisy topples you from the outside.

Where do you think he is misguided with regard to his talk on the environment? And I don't want to get into a belief vs. non-belief discussion.

[jolinar of malkshor]

What I find funny is that no one is holding back on trashing the pope and Catholics in this thread and it appears to be all fun and games with everyone eating there popcorn. I can only imagine the names people would be called and the outcry of intolerance if we were discussing any other religion.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Where do you think he is misguided with regard to his talk on the environment? And I don't want to get into a belief vs. non-belief discussion.

Actually, his position seems rather levelheaded and sensible in this area. I am speaking more in general - the trend in this thread is to demonize him as if he was actively malevolent, and goose-stepping his way over the myriad bodies of his dead enemies. Essentially this thread has been a big "ad hominem" attack on a position that, once I actually read it, not only made no claim to infallibility but openly called for reasoned debate and scientific discussion.

Of course, the big offender is mykalberta, who appears to be a Protestant straight from the 16th century appealing to the forces of "anti-popery". Still, the opportunity to call down calumny from the cheap seats apparently was too juicy for someone to call him on it - I never thought I'd be in agreement with Jolinar, but he is right in that this thread has never been about debating the actual issue, but rather about getting licks in at the Catholics. Not impressive.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by jammies

Actually, his position seems rather levelheaded and sensible in this area. I am speaking more in general - the trend in this thread is to demonize him as if he was actively malevolent, and goose-stepping his way over the myriad bodies of his dead enemies. Essentially this thread has been a big "ad hominem" attack on a position that, once I actually read it, not only made no claim to infallibility but openly called for reasoned debate and scientific discussion.

Thank you. I got the same impression.

[Eric Vail]

Missed in the whole slam the Catholics thread here is that the excerpt that started the debate came from Pope Benedict's address for the World Day of Peace on January 1. Peace does not seem what many posters want here - instead they are promoting division and hatred.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What I find funny is that no one is holding back on trashing the pope and Catholics in this thread and it appears to be all fun and games with everyone eating there popcorn. I can only imagine the names people would be called and the outcry of intolerance if we were discussing any other religion.

No just all religions.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What I find funny is that no one is holding back on trashing the pope and Catholics in this thread and it appears to be all fun and games with everyone eating there popcorn. I can only imagine the names people would be called and the outcry of intolerance if we were discussing any other religion.

Yeah, because Catholics are the only ones who get a rough ride on the OT board.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, because Catholics are the only ones who get a rough ride on the OT board.

You know exactly what I mean. It is not the questioning of the faith it is how it has been debated in this thread.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You know exactly what I mean. It is not the questioning of the faith it is how it has been debated in this thread.

I was raised a catholic, and I am now classify my church affiliation as being a militantly non-practicing catholic. The reason I take the stance I have boils down to two basic things. One is the whole body of lies, self-serving dogma and systemic corruption in the church. The other is the sanctioning of pedophilia that exists in the catholic church.

No doubt you will scream in outrage at that last statement, but I personally don't give a rat's tuckus. Two of my best friends when I was a kid were abused by these monsters ... each was sexually abused by a different priest. The second was brought in to replace the first priest who was accused of screwing kids. He turned out to be no different. One of my friends had lost his father to cancer when my friend was about 13. The friggin' priest stepped in and pretended to take on a father figure role ... he'd take my friend camping, on shopping trips, etc. Well guess what ... he was doing a lot more than just teaching my friend how to camp. If the RCC has only one thing right I hope it's that there is a hell so this rotten can burn in it for eternity. To take advantage of a family tragedy and a kid like that for his own personal sexual gratification is monstrous ... demonic even.

The church's reaction to these creeps was to deny everything and transfer them elsewhere where they could continue their abuse of boys. Twenty years later both of my friends testified against these animals, along with numerous other people from other parishes who were abused as kids. We're not talking about a big parish here either ... 150 people in the town, yet two consecutive priests were later jailed for pedophilia. It was "common" knowledge in the community that others over the years were guilty of the same thing. The community considered themselves fortunate when the church had a "normal" priest who only screwed the community's women.

As for the lies, false dogma, corruption, etc. ... those who wish to believe it are welcome to it. I want no part of it though. Original sin? Ya, I really buy that one. I heard one priest tell the congregation that unless a person is an RC priest OR a virgin, you were going to hell. I thought that was hilarious ... a priest OR a virgin ... meaning you only had to be one or the other. Good catholics have to have lots of kids though ... just don't enjoy the orgasms. Oh, and by the way, have lots of kids but sorry, you're going to hell for it anyway because you're no a virgin. Might as well enjoy the orgasm I guess since you're going to hell anyway. I don't wish to get into a theology debate though. If you believe this crap and if it works for you, have at it.

So based on my experiences I figure the pope, the vatican and the whole organization deserve all of the smears and cheap shots they get. They've been earning them for close to 2000 years. They're not the only organized religion that deserves criticism, but this thread is about the pope, so it follows logically that catholicism is under fire rather than rastafarianism or buddhism or whatever.

Edit: The relevance of the above to this thread is that I don't believe or trust anything the pope has to say about anything because I don't agree with or support his motives. And I believe everything he says and does is motivated by the vatican's agenda. In this case, I don't agree that the interests of humanity outweigh the interests of the rest of the creatures on the planet and the planet's ecological health. It's all one and the same, and because politicians, the pope and other world leaders don't get it, or rufuse to get it, is going to cost us in the end.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I was raised a catholic, and I am now classify my church affiliation as being a militantly non-practicing catholic. The reason I take the stance I have boils down to two basic things. One is the whole body of lies, self-serving dogma and systemic corruption in the church. The other is the sanctioning of pedophilia that exists in the catholic church.

No doubt you will scream in outrage at that last statement, but I personally don't give a rat's tuckus. Two of my best friends when I was a kid were abused by these monsters ... each was sexually abused by a different priest. The second was brought in to replace the first priest who was accused of screwing kids. He turned out to be no different. One of my friends had lost his father to cancer when my friend was about 13. The friggin' priest stepped in and pretended to take on a father figure role ... he'd take my friend camping, on shopping trips, etc. Well guess what ... he was doing a lot more than just teaching my friend how to camp. If the RCC has only one thing right I hope it's that there is a hell so this rotten can burn in it for eternity. To take advantage of a family tragedy and a kid like that for his own personal sexual gratification is monstrous ... demonic even.

The church's reaction to these creeps was to deny everything and transfer them elsewhere where they could continue their abuse of boys. Twenty years later both of my friends testified against these animals, along with numerous other people from other parishes who were abused as kids. We're not talking about a big parish here either ... 150 people in the town, yet two consecutive priests were later jailed for pedophilia. It was "common" knowledge in the community that others over the years were guilty of the same thing. The community considered themselves fortunate when the church had a "normal" priest who only screwed the community's women.

As for the lies, false dogma, corruption, etc. ... those who wish to believe it are welcome to it. I want no part of it though. Original sin? Ya, I really buy that one. I heard one priest tell the congregation that unless a person is an RC priest OR a virgin, you were going to hell. I thought that was hilarious ... a priest OR a virgin ... meaning you only had to be one or the other. Good catholics have to have lots of kids though ... just don't enjoy the orgasms. Oh, and by the way, have lots of kids but sorry, you're going to hell for it anyway because you're no a virgin. Might as well enjoy the orgasm I guess since you're going to hell anyway. I don't wish to get into a theology debate though. If you believe this crap and if it works for you, have at it.

So based on my experiences I figure the pope, the vatican and the whole organization deserve all of the smears and cheap shots they get. They've been earning them for close to 2000 years. They're not the only organized religion that deserves criticism, but this thread is about the pope, so it follows logically that catholicism is under fire rather than rastafarianism or buddhism or whatever.

I wouldn't disagree with anything you have said in this post. The point that I am making is look at all the names and things I have been called such as a racist or intolerant when I discuss other religions yet there is definately a double standard when it comes to Christianity. That is the point I am making. I am not standing up for the Catholic church or anything like that.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I wouldn't disagree with anything you have said in this post. The point that I am making is look at all the names and things I have been called such as a racist or intolerant when I discuss other religions yet there is definately a double standard when it comes to Christianity. That is the point I am making. I am not standing up for the Catholic church or anything like that.

Okay ... I missed that drift. I certainly agree that most religions are open to criticism at the least, and often worse, and I wouldn't call you racist or intolerant just for criticizing them. It would depend on what exactly you said of course. I don't quite see where the double standard is with christianity though. Lots of people are only too happy to jump on a guy for criticizing it. I don't see where it's open season on the RCs or anyone else as there is no shortage of "defenders of the faith" in my experience.

[photon]

Plus it doesn't really make sense to call someone "racist" for being critical of a religious belief system.. That's like calling someone racist because they don't like green shirts!

Intolerant maybe, but there's nothing wrong with being intolerant (depending on what it is not being tolerated). I'm pretty intolerant of people that try to tell me the earth is flat.

[jammies]

It's not racism, but it is prejudice. Simply dismissing everything the Pope says as "irrelevant nonsense" is, as I said, attacking the person and not the message. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with what he says, but disagreeing because HE is the one who said it, is where I take issue.

I have no problem with attacking the Catholic Church as an institution, or attacking specific members for misdeeds they have perpetrated - if the criticism is warranted, which it far too often is. Dividing the world into the elect and the damned, however, is a religious trick - don't go there if you claim to be a disciple of logic and not dogma.