What brands/companies do you boycott?

[Agamemnon]

Ag, drawing a comparason between a sweatshop and a rapist is a long shot... at best. Even in a sweatshop, the conditions could be horrendous, long hours, etc, but at the end of the day, the worker has helped both themselves and their family. A rapist helps noone but themselves.

The comparison was not meant to portray exploited labourers as rape victims, it was to explain the mindset of why people boycott certain businesses for certain practises. You certainly may not feel that exploitation of foreign labour for _bottom_ dollar isn't a bad thing... so don't boycott the business. If you can't relate, you can't, no harm done.

Large businesses hire less fortunate/handicapped people all the time. They probably pay them minimum wage, or maybe less. The government would probably chip in a bit as well to bring up the total wage. But the business is in fact, getting cheap labor. Are you going to boycott those establishments as well, becuase they are exploiting the handicapped? Not paying them what they should be getting paid? They are giving the opportunity for them make a living.

At a place i used to work at, they would hire high school students to come in and gain "work experiance". They would be paid less than minimum wage, for doing sh*t work. That could be considered exploitation as well.

I'm probably not thrilled that businesses pay the handicapped minimum wage, but that case is a little different, as the abilities of the individual are physically hampered. Also, they are still entitled to the fantastic benefits of any North American worker, so they are not 'exploited' to nearly the same degree. Same goes for underpaid highschool kids. I find it hard to compare those degrees of 'exploitation', as the highschool kid isn't supporting a family on the wage... they're buying video games and doritos. I don't find the situations that comparable.

[Mike Oxlong]

Originally posted by Looger+Feb 9 2005, 03:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Looger @ Feb 9 2005, 03:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-arsenal@Feb 9 2005, 02:18 AM
Ah... Pennylane ent guy i see
Yah.. I hate all his establishments. The only good things about Cowboys is the waitressess.
...

that's what he said!

<seriously>

a quick look at the financing of vickers entertainment tells you all you need to know aboot their racial profiling at the door. [/b][/quote]
I would Love to hear about the financing of Vickers establishments...please explain.

Is it the same rumour that Hulk Rogan was mentioning about biker gangs? Is there any proof to that or is it just like the rumour that all the waitresees get a free pair of tits after they worked there for 6 months? (Which I know isn't true because my girlfriend used to waitress there and confirmed that rumour was false)

Not that I am defending Vickers but if they do have a form of racial profiling at the door I can understand why. Read the paper and look at the names of the people who are involved in the stabbings. 9 times out of 10 it is an ethnic minority group. This is not a racist comment this is fact. I can understand if he wants to keep that element out of his bar so that people who want to go in there and have a good time aren't afraid for their lives. I realize that not every Asian or Middle Eastern guy is going to stab someone but if they are dressed like Gangsters or "hoods" then they have to be smart about who they let in and who they don't.

They guy isn't running a business to be the United nations. He is running it to make money and provide a fun environment for people.

By the way avoid buying or leasing a car at Sunridge Mzda at ALL costs!!!
Because they don;t know what the hell they are talking about they cost me an additional $3000 on the lease and I had to return it early. Long story but please avoid them.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Feb 9 2005, 11:41 AM

CDs are terrible value. I once saw a comparison that showed the soundtrack for the film Chicago only cost about $3 less than the DVD, which included the film (and all the songs on the soundtrack), liner notes, cast and crew commentary, and many other of the standard DVD bonus features. The CD, on the other hand, just had the songs and liner notes. Great value indeed.

And let's not even get into the issue of most CDs these days consist of one or two good songs and then 10 songs of crappy filler.

"Just songs"

Well frankly perhaps you just don't like music very much.

Again, in my mind you get something that you can keep and play for pretty much eternity assuming you don't damage the CDs. Well I agree that a lot of CDs have only one or two songs I think that's partly up to the buyer to ensure they are buying quality work. Most of the Cds a buy I enjoy start to finish or mostly.

Bottom line is that if you don't think that a CD is worth $15 that's up to you but I hope it doesn' mean you feel alright about burning CDs illeagaly from online, though I suspect it probably does.

[Agamemnon]

This is not a racist comment this is fact. I can understand if he wants to keep that element out of his bar so that people who want to go in there and have a good time aren't afraid for their lives. I realize that not every Asian or Middle Eastern guy is going to stab someone but if they are dressed like Gangsters or "hoods" then they have to be smart about who they let in and who they don't.

I assume, then, that you have no problem with (or at least, understand) racial profiling at the entrance of Calgary businesses?

They guy isn't running a business to be the United nations. He is running it to make money and provide a fun environment for people.

You're right, he's running a business. Just because you own a business doesnt' give you the right to discriminate based on race. No shoes/No service is a world apart from No Asians/No Blacks. There is a limit on how discriminatory you're allowed to be with your customers. Hang up a 'No Asians' sign in your store window and find out how fast the City (not to mention Province, Feds) gets on you. I'm betting fast.

[Mike Oxlong]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Feb 9 2005, 06:55 PM

I assume, then, that you have no problem with (or at least, understand) racial profiling at the entrance of Calgary businesses?

You're right, he's running a business. Just because you own a business doesnt' give you the right to discriminate based on race. No shoes/No service is a world apart from No Asians/No Blacks. There is a limit on how discriminatory you're allowed to be with your customers. Hang up a 'No Asians' sign in your store window and find out how fast the City (not to mention Province, Feds) gets on you. I'm betting fast.

If racial profiling allows me to have a drink and a good time in a safe environment where I am not going to get stabbed or punched or I have to worry about who I look at or bump into then Yes I am in favour of it.

I am not saying that he shouldn't let any Asians or Blacks in, what I am saying is that a group of them come to the door dressed in "gang" colors or similar clothes or guys who just generally look like trouble makers then they shouldn't let them in. Same goes for white guys as well. Unfortunately most of the stabbings aren't white guys.

He isn't hanging a no Asians sign out the front window. I have seen PLENTY of ethnic minorities at his clubs. In fact towards the end of the Drinks days it was mainly populated my ethnic minorities. That is when they started having a LOT of trouble with fights and stabbings and hence the reason they shut it down and opened up Tantra.

I just don't think he is as racist as everyone thinks, especially considering his major business partner in these clubs is a mediterranean/middle eastern guy himself.

People confuse racism with facts sometimes. If you have Asian guys doing the stabbings all over the city then you are going to be careful that doesn't happen in your club. It isn't racist, it is running a business.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Mike Oxlong+Feb 9 2005, 12:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike Oxlong @ Feb 9 2005, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Feb 9 2005, 06:55 PM

I assume, then, that you have no problem with (or at least, understand) racial profiling at the entrance of Calgary businesses?

You're right, he's running a business. Just because you own a business doesnt' give you the right to discriminate based on race. No shoes/No service is a world apart from No Asians/No Blacks. There is a limit on how discriminatory you're allowed to be with your customers. Hang up a 'No Asians' sign in your store window and find out how fast the City (not to mention Province, Feds) gets on you. I'm betting fast.

If racial profiling allows me to have a drink and a good time in a safe environment where I am not going to get stabbed or punched or I have to worry about who I look at or bump into then Yes I am in favour of it.

I am not saying that he shouldn't let any Asians or Blacks in, what I am saying is that a group of them come to the door dressed in "gang" colors or similar clothes or guys who just generally look like trouble makers then they shouldn't let them in. Same goes for white guys as well. Unfortunately most of the stabbings aren't white guys.

He isn't hanging a no Asians sign out the front window. I have seen PLENTY of ethnic minorities at his clubs. In fact towards the end of the Drinks days it was mainly populated my ethnic minorities. That is when they started having a LOT of trouble with fights and stabbings and hence the reason they shut it down and opened up Tantra.

I just don't think he is as racist as everyone thinks, especially considering his major business partner in these clubs is a mediterranean/middle eastern guy himself.

People confuse racism with facts sometimes. If you have Asian guys doing the stabbings all over the city then you are going to be careful that doesn't happen in your club. It isn't racist, it is running a business. [/b][/quote]
Racial profiling is illegal.

I don't care how many times you say "it's a fact", 90% of the violent crime in Calgary is not carried out by any single ethnic minority, or any group you could make a judgement about based on appearance or the color of their skin.

"A group of them...", "he is just not as racist as everyone thinks...". "Asian guys doing the stabbings all over the city..."

Jesus.

[moon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Feb 9 2005, 01:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Feb 9 2005, 01:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

If racial profiling allows me to have a drink and a good time in a safe environment where I am not going to get stabbed or punched or I have to worry about who I look at or bump into then Yes I am in favour of it.

I am not saying that he shouldn't let any Asians or Blacks in, what I am saying is that a group of them come to the door dressed in "gang" colors or similar clothes or guys who just generally look like trouble makers then they shouldn't let them in. Same goes for white guys as well. Unfortunately most of the stabbings aren't white guys.

He isn't hanging a no Asians sign out the front window. I have seen PLENTY of ethnic minorities at his clubs. In fact towards the end of the Drinks days it was mainly populated my ethnic minorities. That is when they started having a LOT of trouble with fights and stabbings and hence the reason they shut it down and opened up Tantra.

I just don't think he is as racist as everyone thinks, especially considering his major business partner in these clubs is a mediterranean/middle eastern guy himself.

People confuse racism with facts sometimes. If you have Asian guys doing the stabbings all over the city then you are going to be careful that doesn't happen in your club. It isn't racist, it is running a business.

Racial profiling is illegal.

I don't care how many times you say "it's a fact", 90% of the violent crime in Calgary is not carried out by any single ethnic minority, or any group you could make a judgement about based on appearance or the color of their skin.

"A group of them...", "he is just not as racist as everyone thinks...". "Asian guys doing the stabbings all over the city..."

Jesus. [/b][/quote]
But if he says he is just "gang" profiling or enforcing age/dress codes rules then it is easy to get around.

Also don't kid yourselves there are many white dudes that don't get in either.

[Mike Oxlong]

I am not racist.

Look at the stabbings in the clubs across the city in the past 5 years. It is a fact.

I am not saying every Asian or Black guy in the city is going to stab someone, all I am saying is that the majority of these incidents involve ethnic minorities. How can you even argue that?

I have LOTS of friends who are minorites. 99.9% of these minorities are law abiding citizens who are the greatest people you will ever meet. However there is that small percentage that give everyone a bad reputation.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Mike Oxlong@Feb 9 2005, 01:33 PM
Look at the stabbings in the clubs across the city in the past 5 years. It is a fact.

You should really try to back this stuff up instead of just repeating 'it's a fact' over and over.

We do have a gang issue in this city but to say "90% of nightclub violence is one ethnic group" is obviously wrong.

[Ro]

To be quite honest, I'm still relatively young and somewhat uninformed in comparison to many of you (or at least I think I might be) when it comes to this issue.

That said, I tend to agree with Ag's arguments for boycotting a multinational corporation that uses cheap foreign labor to produce their goods.

While it's true that many people in third world countires have no other alternative, I will disagree with the idea that I am hurting those people by boycotting the goods they produce, and the companies that sell them. Here's a few reasons why:

-The notion that EPZs (when I use the term Economic Processing Zone, consider it to mean Free Trade Zone, Industrial Free Zone, or any similar term) have increased employment substantially is false. Sure, the number of total jobs may have increased, but the effect on the national figures of joblessness are not significantly increased, save for a few extreme examples. In other words, yes, jobs are created. But are they the right jobs?

-Many EPZs do not pay workers a living wage. Again, long hours, poor working conditions, no benefits, etc. I understand some of these people may have no other alternative, but that doesn't make it right. What were these people doing before Nike and Adidas showed up? (If the answer is prostitution, selling drugs, illegal activities, etc., then a whole new set of issues arises). What will they do once they organize a union and demand better wages/working conditions, and Nike & Adidas say "see ya later, Indonesia, you want too much. We're taking this factory to El Salvador instead, to an area where we can pay workers less than we do here." This happens all the time, and is fostered by the nature of business- Nike didn't set up shop in China because it wanted to help out the people or the economy there, it moved there for cheap labour. If cheaper labour arises in Africa, guess where Nike is going?

-Why not support Canadian/American/European companies? Sure, you're going to pay a few dollars more for a Sierra Designs winter jacket than a Columbia one, but what if the quality is much improved? If you're supporting a small Canadian business trying to compete with the big boys, instead of Sport Chek goods produced millions of miles away from home?

-Call me whatever you want, but the very fact that the level of human inequality between somebody wearing a $60 Nike hoodie in Calgary and a 15 year old girl in El Salvador who makes 300 of those a day for less than $2 a day, which is not enough to even BREAK EVEN, is very disheartening to me. I don't want to contribute to the capitalistic idea of profiting from other's economic misfortune.

This is a complex issue, and if it is going to be conquered on a global scale, third-world nations and their workers will need to be educated about the economics of the issue, and demand change. I will admit that, perhaps, boycotting goods/companies gives the boycotter a positive emotional feeling, and a sense that they are combatting a moral injustice. It is certainly debatable as to whether or not simply boycotting goods/companies will result in any long-term effects the boycotter desires, and that's why botcotting is only one action one should consider if he wants to truly combat the problem (revoking corporate charters, demanding public access to media, unbranding, activism, etc.).

And I will also say that I wouldn't boycott a company that employs workers in EPZs in Cambodia, if , for example, those workers were paid a good wage, employed under good conditions, offered some sort of benefits, children were not employed, etc. That is the root of the issue if you ask me, and to boycott for other reasons might be inefficient, irresponsible, and misguided. I suppose the more informed one is about what one purchases, the better. That said, I still believe it is perfectly acceptable for somebody to boycott Wal-Mart, Nike, or The Gap because in the past their practices within EPZs have been proven to be unethical, severe, even abusive and slave-like, amongst other reasons. If those companies choose to improve the working conditions in their EPZs, then boycotting those companies for that reason alone is irrational and not the answer.

Whew. Comments welcome.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Feb 9 2005, 01:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Feb 9 2005, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike Oxlong@Feb 9 2005, 01:33 PM
Look at the stabbings in the clubs across the city in the past 5 years. It is a fact.

You should really try to back this stuff up instead of just repeating 'it's a fact' over and over.

We do have a gang issue in this city but to say "90% of nightclub violence is one ethnic group" is obviously wrong. [/b][/quote]
He doesn't in his last post

I am not saying every Asian or Black guy in the city is going to stab someone, all I am saying is that the majority of these incidents involve ethnic minorities. How can you even argue that?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by arsenal+Feb 9 2005, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (arsenal @ Feb 9 2005, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

You should really try to back this stuff up instead of just repeating 'it's a fact' over and over.

We do have a gang issue in this city but to say "90% of nightclub violence is one ethnic group" is obviously wrong.

He doesn't in his last post

I am not saying every Asian or Black guy in the city is going to stab someone, all I am saying is that the majority of these incidents involve ethnic minorities. How can you even argue that?

[/b][/quote]
Further up in the thread he said "9 times out of 10". Maybe he's right but he hasn't retracted that or provided any proof whatsoever.

Frankly I don't care either way. I've spent the grand total of one afternoon in a Vickers establishment in the last 5 years and I'll spend even less time in them over the next 5. It's got nothing to do with how they train their genius bouncers to keep out the riffraff.

But I do live in Calgary and if they are using racial profiling/racism to bar entrance to a public place then, well, it looks bad on all of us.

[Bill Bumface]

I've been Vickers free for about 3 years myself.

My philosiphy on the whole thing is I'd rather them try keep the criminals out, then try keep the minorities out and hope the minorities are the criminals.

How about they use their millions in revenue to purchase a couple metal detectors? ID scanners? Pat people down?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I don't agree 100% with racial profiling, but at the same time it must be recognized that gangs which consist of minorities are at the root of a large number of the different stabbings, and drive by murders that have happened in Calgary in the past few years. If you want evidence look up to our neighbors to the north where they have seen an epidemic (and I don't use the word lightly) of asian gang activity in the past 10 years.

If you are looking for statistics which show this is a problem, here are some from Correctional Services of Canada.

Here is a quote from Criminal Intelligence Service of Canada

" AOC will continue to pose a major threat in Canada through its multiple, sophisticated criminal activities, its significant criminal influence in many areas across the country and its supply of illicit drugs to other organized crime groups." [AOC=Asian Organized Crime].

" A number of AOC networks across the country are involved in sophisticated, high-level criminal activities, particularly the importation and distribution of cocaine, ecstasy and methamphetamine and the large-scale cultivation and distribution of marihuana within Canada and to the U.S."

"Violence continues to be a regular occurrence within AOC groups. In Calgary and Edmonton, competition between AOC groups for control of the illicit drug trade has resulted in murders, numerous drive-by shootings and assaults."

There is a problem whether you want to turn your back to it or not. Vickers is in the business of making money.... if you didn't feel safe at a club then would you go, the answer is likely no. I will try digging up some more info from members of the VICE and Anti-gang unit that I talked to. But make no mistake about it there is a problem with AOC.

Rouge your quotes there were a bit out of line... if a group of them... it obviously wasn't a racist comment... If I say a group of white guys pull up and then I state that they were able to get into the club, does me refering to them as they indicate that I hate white people?

That being said it should be based on resonable suspicion that an individual is part of a gang. If the suspicion arises then pound sand is all I would say.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Feb 9 2005, 09:10 PM
I don't agree 100% with racial profiling, but at the same time it must be recognized that gangs which consist of minorities are at the root of a large number of the different stabbings, and drive by murders that have happened in Calgary in the past few years. If you want evidence look up to our neighbors to the north where they have seen an epidemic (and I don't use the word lightly) of asian gang activity in the past 10 years.

If you are looking for statistics which show this is a problem, here are some from Correctional Services of Canada.

Here is a quote from Criminal Intelligence Service of Canada

" AOC will continue to pose a major threat in Canada through its multiple, sophisticated criminal activities, its significant criminal influence in many areas across the country and its supply of illicit drugs to other organized crime groups." [AOC=Asian Organized Crime].

" A number of AOC networks across the country are involved in sophisticated, high-level criminal activities, particularly the importation and distribution of cocaine, ecstasy and methamphetamine and the large-scale cultivation and distribution of marihuana within Canada and to the U.S."

"Violence continues to be a regular occurrence within AOC groups. In Calgary and Edmonton, competition between AOC groups for control of the illicit drug trade has resulted in murders, numerous drive-by shootings and assaults."

There is a problem whether you want to turn your back to it or not. Vickers is in the business of making money.... if you didn't feel safe at a club then would you go, the answer is likely no. I will try digging up some more info from members of the VICE and Anti-gang unit that I talked to. But make no mistake about it there is a problem with AOC.

Rouge your quotes there were a bit out of line... if a group of them... it obviously wasn't a racist comment... If I say a group of white guys pull up and then I state that they were able to get into the club, does me refering to them as they indicate that I hate white people?

That being said it should be based on resonable suspicion that an individual is part of a gang. If the suspicion arises then pound sand is all I would say.

My quotes weren't out of line. They were his.

You provided ample evidence that "AOC" is an issue here in Calgary. It can't be disputed. Of course it can't be disputed that white people in Calgary are responsible for more crime than any one visible minority. How loud would the uproar be in this town if some prominent businessman refused service to white people because some white people are criminals? My guess it would be pretty loud.

[shoestring]

vickers own Ceiliahs too.I wasn't boycotting because of racial things but I will.
I just think he charges too much. And I am too old!
And I am too old too waste a bunch of time running around a Walmart too. I could give a heck where they get there clothes from. We are becoming a service society for the manufacturers of the world.

[badnarik]

how much is that next piece of information worth?

i like the example that walter williams gives in one of his columns on racial profiling:

Since the acquisition of information is not costless, it requires the sacrifice of resources (time and/or money), we all seek methods to economize on its acquisition. Prior to making a decision, people never obtain all of the information available or possible to obtain. For example, all prefer low prices to higher prices for a given purchase, but we never canvass all prices. In choosing a mate, we never obtain all the information about our prospective spouse. In these and other decisions, we decide that a given amount of information is "enough" and we search no more.

Consider the following example of how much information is acquired prior to a decision. Suppose upon entering a room one is unexpectedly confronted with the sight of a fully grown tiger. A fairly reliable prediction is that person would endeavor to leave the area in great dispatch or otherwise seek safety. All by itself that prediction is uninteresting. More interesting is the explanation for the behavior. Would the person's decision to run be based upon any detailed information held about that particular or would the decision be based upon the person's information about how he has seen other tigers behave, what his parents have told him about tigers or tiger folklore? Most likely the individual's decision would be based upon the latter. He simply pre-judges or stereotypes the tiger. The fact that it is a tiger is deemed sufficient information for action.

If a person did not pre-judge or employ tiger stereotypes, his behavior would be different. He would endeavor to acquire additional information about the tiger before taking any action. Maybe he would speak to and pet the tiger in an effort to ascertain whether the tiger meant him harm or not. Only if the tiger became menacing or lunged at him would he seek safety.

Most people so confronted by a tiger would not seek additional information. They would quickly calculate that the expected cost of an additional unit of information about the tiger is greater than the expected benefit. Hence, no search would be undertaken; physical characteristics alone would be enough for action.

What can be said about the preferences of such an individual? There is no unambiguous answer. The decision to seek safety is consistent with the person having positive, negative or neutral preferences regarding tigers. In general, simply by watching people's behavior allows us to say nothing unambiguous about their preferences.

the column is kind of old, but i think the guy is right on the money on almost everything he writes about

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/w...profiliing.html

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Feb 9 2005, 09:30 PM

My quotes weren't out of line. They were his.

You provided ample evidence that "AOC" is an issue here in Calgary. It can't be disputed. Of course it can't be disputed that white people in Calgary are responsible for more crime than any one visible minority. How loud would the uproar be in this town if some prominent businessman refused service to white people because some white people are criminals? My guess it would be pretty loud.

There is no real easy solution. Do I think that Vickers is a racist because he has the policy which employs a form of racial profiling (a loose form mind you). I really think that it should be based on the clothing that one is wearing and who the individual shows up with. Really if a group of people wearing gang clothing show up to the door I don't care if they are white, black, asian, or native, I wouldn't want them in the club. The problem is that there isn't any training for the meatheads at the door to base what is a gang member or who is just a bunch of guys enjoying a night on the town. Obviously they are going to err on the side of caution, and really part of me hopes they do, just so I can feel that much safer in a club, even in a subconscious manner.

Unfortunanly for the majority of asians (majority not involved in crime) they are targetting because of the minority who do act well like thugs, or criminals.

I just said the quote thing because you seem to be intentionally misinterpreting what he said to confirm your point of view.

[Flame On]

Trying to avoid the arguement of sweatshop labour force by asking "how does that help the local labourer" is a little like asking "how will an individual slave be helped by being freed?" "They will perhaps be homeless, jobless, skilless, what place is there for them. Better to stick to the staus quo" that's the same in my mind.
Further, the problem of cheap labour adds to the problems of the area by increasing their standard of living in most cases, then cutting it off when the salaries rise to the point where it's cheeper to find another cheaper workforce.
Not a plan for succuss you must admit. Gain a better standard of living for a few months/years for an individual worker (surely no one is naieve enough to presume those workers are sage financial planners that will set that money away to help them later) but the region or demographic is more harshly affected after for long term. Maybe families have more children based on a temporary higher income, but then it goes and matters are worse.
I see the point trying to be made that those workers aren't complaining, but I think in the end they do.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Feb 9 2005, 10:10 PM

There is no real easy solution. Do I think that Vickers is a racist because he has the policy which employs a form of racial profiling (a loose form mind you). I really think that it should be based on the clothing that one is wearing and who the individual shows up with. Really if a group of people wearing gang clothing show up to the door I don't care if they are white, black, asian, or native, I wouldn't want them in the club. The problem is that there isn't any training for the meatheads at the door to base what is a gang member or who is just a bunch of guys enjoying a night on the town. Obviously they are going to err on the side of caution, and really part of me hopes they do, just so I can feel that much safer in a club, even in a subconscious manner.

Unfortunanly for the majority of asians (majority not involved in crime) they are targetting because of the minority who do act well like thugs, or criminals.

I just said the quote thing because you seem to be intentionally misinterpreting what he said to confirm your point of view

I don't think you can misinterpret "Asian guys doing the stabbings all over the city". If someone says "he is just not as racist as everyone thinks" it sounds to me like "he's only a little racist, not as bad as you think".

That's neither here nor there though as they weren't your comments.

As for the rest of it -- I wouldn't feel any safer in a club because some scumbag bar owner decided to test his own simpleminded social theory and only let white people into the bar. I've seen enough drunken white guys beat the holy hell out of each other with bottles, bar stools, pool cues, glasses, fists, feet and flailing limbs to know that barring non-whites from a bar based on non-whiteness because they might cause trouble is useless.

It's also illegal and I thought you were all for that law and order stuff?