Possible Class Action vs Apple

[arsenal]

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/...rnia_lawy.html

Rather interesting situation brewing south of the boarder.
Basically, people who un-locked their phone using a software unlocker, and update their iPhone software to the latest version are experiencing "Bricking".
ie: thier phone does not function at all, or will only work with the original AT&T SIM card.
Kind of an anti-trust thing with the only carrier being AT&T.

So do think there is case?

I find it kind of ironic that Jobs, who got into the computer business as a home-brew "hacker", is now doing what ever he can to stop this new bread of "hackers".

[Ford Prefect]

They tampered with their phones. That means warranty null & void with anything I've ever owned.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

They tampered with their phones. That means warranty null & void with anything I've ever owned.

Doesn't seem to be a warranty issue though. Usability and warranty aren't related.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

I got a simple solution to this.

Don't buy an iphone.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Doesn't seem to be a warranty issue though. Usability and warranty aren't related.

I was speaking figuratively rather than literally. What I was getting at was the same though ... if a user modifies a retail purchase in a manner not offically supported or sacntioned by the manufacturer, it's buyer beware in my experience.

[Barnes]

If youre tech savy enough to unlock an iPhone, your tech savy enough to know that there was fair warning that the phone may be bricked if you ran the update. Hacking the phone is a completely different story.

Apple has almost promoted hacking the iPhone as well as appleTV. They have a deal with at&t to protect. They have to at least appear to be trying to protect the agreement.

[Juventus3]

How is this any different than say MS shutting down your computer when your copy of windows isn't licensed?

[Barnes]

They are not seeding an update to intentionally brick phones. The firmware update that adds features and updates the firmware will brick the phone because the unlocking process messes with the original firmware. There are already hack to return to the original so that they unlock can be re-applied in the meantime if you were dumb enough to update an unlocked phone.

The old firmware is also available on apple's website.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Juventus3

How is this any different than say MS shutting down your computer when your copy of windows isn't licensed?

Do you honestly not see the difference between rendering a piece of legally-purchased hardware unusable and rendering a piece of illegally-pirated software unusable?

People who hacked their iPhones are still paying Apple customers. Sure, they violated the terms of their agreement and thus should not be entitled to warranty and tech support, but there's a whole world of difference between that and having Apple break their own hardware.

A more apt analogy would be what Microsoft does to modded Xboxes...they don't intentionally brick the hardware, they just make it so that hacked units can't access Xbox Live.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

They tampered with their phones.

And they should be allowed to do so.

It's the same with the new iPod's. They wouldn't support any other utility for loading songs other than iTunes. If I pay for it, I should be able to use it in any way I want.

That being said. Messing with firmware may have unexpected results. Firmware updates to messed with firmware should come with the expectation that it may break things.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by kermitology

And they should be allowed to do so.

It's the same with the new iPod's. They wouldn't support any other utility for loading songs other than iTunes. If I pay for it, I should be able to use it in any way I want.

That being said. Messing with firmware may have unexpected results. Firmware updates to messed with firmware should come with the expectation that it may break things.

That's what I meant as well ... you stated it much clearer though. I didn't mean to imply that a user should not be allowed to do what they want with their prurchase, just that the manufacturer shouldn't be held responsible for resulting problems.

[CubicleGeek]

Originally Posted by kermitology

It's the same with the new iPod's. They wouldn't support any other utility for loading songs other than iTunes. If I pay for it, I should be able to use it in any way I want.

Well, you can use 3rd party alternatives at your own risk. Apple won't support those alternatives and I don't see why they would be expected to do so.

[Juventus3]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Do you honestly not see the difference between rendering a piece of legally-purchased hardware unusable and rendering a piece of illegally-pirated software unusable?

People who hacked their iPhones are still paying Apple customers. Sure, they violated the terms of their agreement and thus should not be entitled to warranty and tech support, but there's a whole world of difference between that and having Apple break their own hardware.

A more apt analogy would be what Microsoft does to modded Xboxes...they don't intentionally brick the hardware, they just make it so that hacked units can't access Xbox Live.

Do you honestly not see that in both cases the user is using void software?

If you steal a copy of windows your still paying for the computer hardware.

But I suppose you want me to bow down to your intelligence anyways...

[monkeyman]

couldn't they just not update the firmware? honestly, if you update your firmware after the warning Apple sent out, you deserve what you get.

[Regorium]

Just wondering, did Apple's new firmware have code that intentionally bricks phones that have been modified?

I'm curious because I see that Apple has said modding your phone could cause "permanent, irreparable damage". This sounds like reverting to older firmware would not solve the problem - and this can really only be caused by newer firmware that maliciously destroys hardware.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by CubicleGeek

Well, you can use 3rd party alternatives at your own risk. Apple won't support those alternatives and I don't see why they would be expected to do so.

Why would they bother to change the way they create the music database so that it only recognizes a certain iTunes? THAT is a more pertinent question.

Third party software just reverse engineered how iTunes databases the song list on an iPod.

They do it just to be dickheads.

[Bobblehead]

The difference here is that there is a specific exemption in the US to allow unlocking of phones:

The underlying activity sought to be performed by the owner of the handset is to allow the handset to do what it was manufactured to do – lawfully connect to any carrier. This is a noninfringing activity by the user. But for the software lock protected by § 1201, it appears that there would be nothing to stand in the way of a consumer being able to engage in this noninfringing use of a lawfully purchased mobile handset and the software that operates it. Indeed, there does not appear to be any concern about protecting access to the copyrighted work itself. The purpose of the software lock appears to be limited to restricting the owner’s use of the mobile handset to support a business model, rather than to protect access to a copyrighted work itself.

So, it is legal for the owners of iPhones to unlock their phones.

The question that is raised is was there specific code in the update to fubar the phone? If so then I think Apple should fix the phones.

This would be like an automaker making a deal with Petro Canada, then saying, if you buy my car, you must fill up at Petro Canada; and if you fill up at Shell your car breaks down and the automaker says you voided your warranty. As long as you weren't putting the wrong fuel in the tank you should be fine.

As long as these people weren't using their phone as a hammer, Apple should fix them.

Edit: here is a link to the pdf from the US copyright office that I quoted.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Juventus3

Do you honestly not see that in both cases the user is using void software?

If you steal a copy of windows your still paying for the computer hardware.

The difference is that you can still use the hardware of the computer with another operating system. If the iPhone update did irreparable harm and render's the phone useless, even with trying to re-load the old firmware, then there's a big problem in my opinion.

But that's only if you can't load the old version of firmware and get it to work still.

Edit: Excellent post Bobblehead. This is a major problem if it totally fubar's the phone.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Juventus3

Do you honestly not see that in both cases the user is using void software?

If you steal a copy of windows your still paying for the computer hardware.

As kermitology pointed out, when Microsoft de-activates your illegal copy of Windows, they don't brick your PC. It's still usable and you'd be able to install another OS (such as a Linux distro) or even a licensed copy of Windows on it. Microsoft does not render your hardware useless.

Like I said, a much better comparison would be what Microsoft does to hacked/modded Xboxes. They have software that can detect whether your Xbox is running proper Microsoft firmware when you connect to Xbox Live, and if your box is modded, they'll ban you from Live and suspend your warranty and tech support. They won't distribute a firmware update that breaks modded Xboxes and makes them $499 paperweights.

But I suppose you want me to bow down to your intelligence anyways...

I'm not sure what prompted this personal attack, but it's certainly uncalled for.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Just wondering, did Apple's new firmware have code that intentionally bricks phones that have been modified?

I'm curious because I see that Apple has said modding your phone could cause "permanent, irreparable damage". This sounds like reverting to older firmware would not solve the problem - and this can really only be caused by newer firmware that maliciously destroys hardware.

I seriously doubt it was intentional. Just that Apple didn't care about ensuring random hacks were supported.

Thing with modding firmware (or any software really), if you apply an update there is a good chance that your modifications will be overwritten by the newer versions of the files.

When flashing firmware stored on a ROM chip, there is a possibility that you will permenantly corrupt that chip, which would lead to their warning.

But my rather limited understanding of the iPhone leads me to believe that this was basically an OS update and didn't do much with ROM chips. Which would make it possible to fix the problem given the correct software.