wikileaks.org releases classified US military video depicting killing of civilians

[Devils'Advocate]

Can I ask what the ratio is?

If we have a violent insurgent and on innocent person, it's okay to kill both of them to get the insurgent.

What if you have 1 insurgent and 2 innocent people?
1 to 10?
1 to 100?

What is an "acceptable loss of innocent life"?

[flip]

CC I can't disagree with anything you said. Not sure I agree with some of it and I understand how a situation like that seems so easy for us to dissect but for them happened over just a few minutes.

I stand by my opinion that they didn't properly assess the situation and needlessly opened fire. This will sound terrible but what are a couple of extra dead people when so much effed up stuff has happened in Iraq in the last 20 years. I just hope stuff like that is punished, dealt with and discouraged. That is assuming my evaluation of the situation is correct. I guess it is conceivable that the pilot/gunmen did nothing wrong and the reporters and those kids just shouldn't have been there.

Also, just in regards to the kids, the pilots couldn't have known there were kids in the van. That is why I phrased it that way and not in a way that leads one to believe that they intentionally killed children.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Can I ask what the ratio is?

If we have a violent insurgent and on innocent person, it's okay to kill both of them to get the insurgent.

What if you have 1 insurgent and 2 innocent people?
1 to 10?
1 to 100?

What is an "acceptable loss of innocent life"?

That all depends. Am I the one in the in the helicopter with his life (potentially) on the line or am I dissecting the situation from a single video clip being replayed a couple times safely in my mom's basement 3 years after the fact?


Disclaimer: I haven't watched the video yet. Don't flame me or open fire.

[Devils'Advocate]

Actually, this is an aside from the video.... I've often wondered how soldiers make that determination. We actually had a similar discussion about Isreal bombing Hamas sites in Gaza and I didn't get a satisfactory answer then, so I'm trying again.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Can I ask what the ratio is?

If we have a violent insurgent and on innocent person, it's okay to kill both of them to get the insurgent.

What if you have 1 insurgent and 2 innocent people?
1 to 10?
1 to 100?

What is an "acceptable loss of innocent life"?

I'd love to be able to answer that question, but I don't think there is an answer. The boiler plate answer is zero.

But the romantized notion of warfare that was so tightly attached to WW2 and to an extent Korea is so different and so twisted.

It used to be that the loss of an innocent is just not acceptable, it happens you try to fix it, but you try to do your best.

Has become a nebulous mess because we're no long fighting nation states in uniforms with a clear strategy and mandate. We're fighting a shadow enemy that hides among civilians wears their clothes and snipes from a distance, then blends back in.

You hope your intelligence is right, you pray that your seeing the right thing.

But its just going to happen, and there's no longer a ratio of right and wrong.

[Weiser Wonder]

It's war. It would be naive to think this stuff isn't happening. War is a great evil. People need to understand that. Although rhetoric against the evils of war is common, I don't think many people realize what war actually entails. This is it. Everyone should watch this video.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Actually, this is an aside from the video.... I've often wondered how soldiers make that determination. We actually had a similar discussion about Isreal bombing Hamas sites in Gaza and I didn't get a satisfactory answer then, so I'm trying again.

It all comes down to the rules of engagement and what the soldier from Private to General is willing to do to meet victory conditions.

Hammas knows that they can fire weapons from schools and hospitals and UN warehouses because Israel might be hesitant to fire on them. In fact if I remember right Israel bombs those areas with warning leaflets first.

But the Hammas members are willing to stick it out and possibly die because the international backlash from a hospital getting blown up no matter what the situation is awesome.

[burn_this_city]

The kill or be killed mentality overrides peoples common sense or obligation to go through the facts before pulling the trigger.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think it is suspicious to be talking on a cellphone seemingly without a care in the world, which is what is happening as they are fired upon.

That's the weird thing here -- I can understand itchy trigger fingers and nervous soldiers, but nothing looked suspicious (to my untrained eye).

The pilot keeps saying "we got an RPG" and "we got a bunch of guys with AK47s" but what the hell was he seeing? The guys who they shot didn't have guns. Maybe the camera is suspicious, but it just doesn't make sense. Those guys on the ground know the chopper is up there flying around -- is that how insurgents generally act? Just wandering the streets with a RPG over your shoulder as an enemy helicopter buzzes around you with guns trained?

The only way it does make sense to me is that those guys wanted to shoot somebody and saw something that wasn't there.

[burn_this_city]

A couple of the guys were holding aks but the RPG was definitely a camera on the photographers shoulder.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

A couple of the guys were holding aks but the RPG was definitely a camera on the photographers shoulder.

From a distance when he peeked around the corner, it was a long tube shape.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

It's war. It would be naive to think this stuff isn't happening. War is a great evil. People need to understand that. Although rhetoric against the evils of war is common, I don't think many people realize what war actually entails. This is it. Everyone should watch this video.

Then why can't we just carpet bomb the entire ME and start over again?

I'm only half kidding.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That's the weird thing here -- I can understand itchy trigger fingers and nervous soldiers, but nothing looked suspicious (to my untrained eye).

The pilot keeps saying "we got an RPG" and "we got a bunch of guys with AK47s" but what the hell was he seeing? The guys who they shot didn't have guns. Maybe the camera is suspicious, but it just doesn't make sense. Those guys on the ground know the chopper is up there flying around -- is that how insurgents generally act? Just wandering the streets with a RPG over your shoulder as an enemy helicopter buzzes around you with guns trained?

The only way it does make sense to me is that those guys wanted to shoot somebody and saw something that wasn't there.

I don't know, I don't know if they knew the helicopter was there until it closed range. Modern gunships aren't like the older helicopter gunships that you could hear coming miles away.

They could have been used to seeing U.S. helicopter gunships flying over constantly.

I couldn't tell you what they experienced on the ground.

[flip]

The more I read this thread the more I'm not sure what position to take.

At first I was totally in favor of lynching those guys in public. The way they acted so nonchalantly about killing people and the fact that they had fun doing it was disturbing. I also don't think, at least based on the video, that they were cautious enough in evaluating the situation before resorting to lethal force.

It is hard too, knowing after the fact that those were civilians that they shot. If I just saw that video with no prior knowledge I'd probably still be pissed off about how they acted and the lack of caution before just opening fire but I wouldn't feel bad if I thought it was insurgents getting killed.

I still think they made a mistake and should be dealt with and possibly punished by the US Army but I do understand the counterpoints made by CC and others that those guys may have genuinely thought they were killing insurgents and actually doing some good. Their callous nature, even though I still find it despicable, could be them just trying to rationalize the horrible acts associated with war. Maybe if they didn't try and take all the humanity out of the situation they would have thought twice about opening fire. Then again, in other situations maybe that would cost them their lives and the lives of others.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by flip

Then why can't we just carpet bomb the entire ME and start over again?

I'm only half kidding.

Because it's wrong to carpet bomb countries? Did you misconstrue my post to saying that these actions are justifiable? What I was saying is that this is what happens in war. If you are going to be in favor of a war, this is what you are in favor of. I think there is a disconnect between some who support the wars in the Middle East and what these wars actually entail. Personally, I'm very much against war unless it is absolutely necessary.

[Russic]

Man that was hard to watch. I understand the outrage of course, but I can see the situation from the soldier's side as well. This is why decisions to go to war can't be taken lightly.

Makes me think about my wife's little cousin. Last time I saw him he was just a little kid at a wedding running around playing tag. This weekend I saw a facebook post from him that he's among the last groups to go over to Afghanistan and he's incredibly excited to "kill some muslims". Him and a friend were going back and forth saying who they're going to dedicate their first kill to. Reading that has really bothered me. This video didn't help.

[mikey_the_redneck]

The guy peaking around the corner did look quite suspicious. Initially it did look like he had some kind of weapon. I don't think it was a smart move on his part to play hide and seek with the Apache.

If I am a pilot and I think I see an RPG.......damn straight I'm gonna open fire. It's you or them...

When the minivan came along is where it went sideways to me......couldn't they have fired some warning shots or something?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Because it's wrong to carpet bomb countries? Did you misconstrue my post to saying that these actions are justifiable? What I was saying is that this is what happens in war. If you are going to be in favor of a war, this is what you are in favor of. I think there is a disconnect between some who support the wars in the Middle East and what these wars actually entail. Personally, I'm very much against war unless it is absolutely necessary.

You know I was kidding right? The part about only being half kidding was supposed to be a joke because the ME is so effed up I just don't see any solutions.

Not trying to justify these actions at all. I think they are horrible. If I really stretch the scenario I guess I can see how these guys thought they were doing good in that scenario. In no way am I shocked that stuff like this happens in war. That doesn't mean I have to condone it or like it though.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The guy peaking around the corner did look quite suspicious. Initially it did look like he had some kind of weapon. I don't think it was a smart move on his part to play hide and seek with the Apache.

If I am a pilot and I think I see an RPG.......damn straight I'm gonna open fire. It's you or them...

When the minivan came along is where it went sideways to me......couldn't they have fired some warning shots or something?

While there is a protocal for warning shots on roadblocks (which doesn't seem to work to well)

There's no protocal for warning shots from a gunship.

They were also in what they considered to be an insurgent heavy area.

[flip]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

While there is a protocal for warning shots on roadblocks (which doesn't seem to work to well)

There's no protocal for warning shots from a gunship.

They were also in what they considered to be an insurgent heavy area.

Did they say that in the video? do you know that some other way?

Once again, big difference between being in an area dominated by insurgents where there aren't expected to be any civilians driving around with their kids and an area that is full of civilians.

If in fact they were in an area that had lots of insurgents, and if in fact there were recent violent events in that area, and if in fact they thought they had weapons and were firing shots then I guess I can understand how they made that mistake.

It was still a mistake and I still stand by the fact that they were a little too excited to waste those guys and the van.