wikileaks.org releases classified US military video depicting killing of civilians

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Or if you are an Iraqi and look mean, you could be shot?

I think that is the lesson here.

The guys are itching to open fire.

And?

2007 was a powderkeg in Iraq. Its not that crazy to think that a lot of people had itchy trigger fingers.

I wonder how any of us would respond in these situations.

[flip]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You have to be callous. War is a terrible awful thing, and thats how you survive it.

You do your best to protect the innocent. In this case, it looks like they followed the standard rules of engagement.

Again with the Van, they reported that the occupant was trying to retrieve bodies and weapons, that makes them possible insurgents.

I still don't get why you are going by everything that they "reported" in the video.

You can clearly see for yourself that the guy makes no attempt to pick up weapons, if there even were any. That guy was an effing reporter. If the guy tried to pick up anything it was probably his camera.

I don't understand how you can defend the murder of innocent civilians with such a lack of emotion. At least a guy like IFF tried to justify their mistake.

You aren't even admitting it is a mistake and just blindly supporting despicable actions.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by flip

Did you miss the part about the AK 47 being reporters with their cameras?


If those guys were shooting why would there be reporters strolling down the street with them? They certainly weren't hostages. You think the Reuters reporters like to just hang out with insurgents while they open fire on US troops?

Why do the reporter's demeanor look so calm if the guy on the ground had supposedly opened fire? Opened fire on who? The US troops? We don't know that. if they opened fire, which I don't think they did, maybe they were firing on real insurgents and they were protecting the Reuters guys.

We simply don't know. And you trusting those dbags in the video is taking a HUGE leap. Those guys were having a blast murdering people, begging to be allowed to open fire on a van trying to save a dying man and laughed it off after they learned they had murdered children.

Not sure if one guy remarking about shooting when there is no evidence to suggest anybody fired is a pretty big stretch.

Hindsight is 20/20 flip. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but stuff like this happens on a daily basis in a 'warzone.'

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Azure

Far as I'm concerned the war has been won. The US, Britain and other countries are in the process of withdrawing troops as they can. The government seems relatively stable and Iraq is pushing hard to develop their oil fields to help them become independent from US help.

Course, that doesn't change all the screwups made to begin with, but as of right now things are looking a lot better than they were 2 years ago.

You seriously think they have won? The country is in worse shape than when they invaded. The only reason they are thinking of withdrawing is because of home grown pressure.

Can someone tell me why Iraq was invaded in the first place? Last time I checked Bin Laden wasn't from Iraq and had no ties to Iraq.

So what is the reason?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by flip

I still don't get why you are going by everything that they "reported" in the video.

You can clearly see for yourself that the guy makes no attempt to pick up weapons, if there even were any. That guy was an effing reporter. If the guy tried to pick up anything it was probably his camera.

I don't understand how you can defend the murder of innocent civilians with such a lack of emotion. At least a guy like IFF tried to justify their mistake.

You aren't even admitting it is a mistake and just blindly supporting despicable actions.

And you want them to be shot.

Whats the difference?

[Flash Walken]

I'll tell you one thing, if someone was shooting an AK-47 next to me, I wouldn't be huddling around him with 10 other guys talking on my cell-phone like I was on the way to the market.

No shots fired, exaggerated weapons counts and descriptions and false conclusions to get the necessary fire confirmation on an unarmed, injured civilian.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by puckluck

You seriously think they have won? The country is in worse shape than when they invaded. The only reason they are thinking of withdrawing is because of home grown pressure.

Can someone tell me why Iraq was invaded in the first place? Last time I checked Bin Laden wasn't from Iraq and had no ties to Iraq.

So what is the reason?

Of course I think they've 'won.' Unless you think that relative stability politically and economically is a 'loss.'

Also, trying to change the subject into 'why did they invade' has nothing to do with what I said.

[flip]

Originally Posted by ikaris

As you stated, it was the pilot who said they started to "collect weapons." It's as clear as night and day in the video that the people in the van were there trying to help the photographer. I think that's the most sickening part here. The indiscriminate attack on the van that is trying to help a wounded civilian.

Actually what is worse is the US military denying any wrong doing and trying to cover the situation up.

Assuming these guys thought they were insurgents, don't forget they wouldn't have known that the wounded guy was a civilian.

Now the video offers no reason to believe that the guy in the van was an insurgent as well but the US guys presumably believe that anyone aiding the terrorists are terrorists themselves.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'll tell you one thing, if someone was shooting an AK-47 next to me, I wouldn't be huddling around him with 10 other guys talking on my cell-phone like I was on the way to the market.

No shots fired, exaggerated weapons counts and descriptions and false conclusions to get the necessary fire confirmation on an unarmed, injured civilian.

Meaning what? That there was a mistake? I don't think anyone will deny that.

But like the friendly fire incident with the Canadians, stuff like this sometimes happens.

I'm not making excuses for them, I'm just saying that this isn't the first time civilians were killed and it won't be the last time.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Azure

Hindsight is 20/20 flip. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but stuff like this happens on a daily basis in a 'warzone.'

Absolutely this stuff happens. I just don't see why we should condone it.

We can understand scenarios in which mistakes like this could happen and then it becomes slightly more forgivable. My biggest problem was the callousness with which the soldiers talked and how excited they were to be able to kill these people. They shouldn't want to open fire if they can help it. Begging to be able to engage? that reeks of psychopaths who joined the army to waste crazy muslims.

Say all you want about the horribleness of war and how it dehumanizes them and how they deal with it by acting like that but nothing, nothing makes up for laughing when you just murdered a child. Maybe the guy was just trying to rationalize it for himself but that was disturbing. And the way they begged like a horny teenager trying to get into a girls pants when they wanted to engage was sickening. Rationalizing horrible acts you are forced into is one thing. Begging to be able to commit them is another entirely.

Originally Posted by Azure

And you want them to be shot.

Whats the difference?

Hyperbole?

I had just watched a video of innocent civilians being slaughtered, you'll have to forgive me if my reaction was a little over-the-top.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

Meaning what? That there was a mistake? I don't think anyone will deny that.

But like the friendly fire incident with the Canadians, stuff like this sometimes happens.

I'm not making excuses for them, I'm just saying that this isn't the first time civilians were killed and it won't be the last time.

Of course it isn't, and of course it won't be.

Covering it up and pretending like it didn't happen isn't any kind of argument.

Sloughing it off as ' happens' is callously apathetic.

Somehow "that's what happens when your country is invaded" isn't a very good excuse.

Or do you think that every officer up the chain that covered this up should be discharged and jailed?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It does. .

Does it really though? I remember when a rogue Canadian regiment committed a war crime rape/toruture and murder in Somalia and I think it was never punished as such and the worst punishment anyone involved with it received was 1 year in jail. I know of one person in another country who recieved 5 years for destruction of property.

Canadians and Americans have a huge double standard when it comes to these things. I mean, we are entirely capable of going into other countries, doing this and covering up or downplaying it. Imagine if our country was actually invaded and occupied... we'd have the mass graves dug before noon.

[Azure]

Well, think about the way they're trained and what they're exposed too.

We're talking about making them cold-blooded killers. We PAY for that as taxpayers, and then we're surprised when they accidentally, or on purpose kill innocent people.

Regardless, they have one hell of a tough job.

[Flash Walken]

That's a complete and utter non-answer.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Of course it isn't, and of course it won't be.

Covering it up and pretending like it didn't happen isn't any kind of argument.

Sloughing it off as ' happens' is callously apathetic.

Somehow "that's what happens when your country is invaded" isn't a very good excuse.

Or do you think that every officer up the chain that covered this up should be discharged and jailed?

The incident at Ft. Hood? The US Military did its best to cover all that up too?

This kind of behavior isn't exactly new. Its an institution that tries to deal with stuff internally. They have their own court of law, their own rules, own laws, own lawyers, own everything.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That's a complete and utter non-answer.

Because you're looking for an answer that condemns the soldiers.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course I think they've 'won.' Unless you think that relative stability politically and economically is a 'loss.'

Also, trying to change the subject into 'why did they invade' has nothing to do with what I said.

Where did these terrorists go? Do you think they are all of a sudden they're scared to fight and die? There are thousands being recruited every day.

This war was meant to make Iraq a democracy and this will never happen. The U.S puppets can tell you all the good things you want to hear about the progress they have made, but as long as there are extemists (and as long as religion exists there always will be) in Iraq you can bet that there will never be a democracy in Iraq.

Just because you think they have won doesn't make it true.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well, think about the way they're trained and what they're exposed too.

We're talking about making them cold-blooded killers. We PAY for that as taxpayers, and then we're surprised when they accidentally, or on purpose kill innocent people.

Regardless, they have one hell of a tough job.

Well maybe in the US but I know guys in the Canadian military and they are not trained to be cold-blooded killers.

When they accidentally kill people out of fear for their lives or the lives of others I understand.

When they intentionally kill innocent people they should be treated as murderers no matter how tough the job.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Azure

This kind of behavior isn't exactly new. Its an institution that tries to deal with stuff internally. They have their own court of law, their own rules, own laws, own lawyers, own everything.

Sounds pretty transparent.... I wish that if I did something illegal I could investigate myself.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Where did these terrorists go? Do you think they are all of a sudden scared to fight and die? There are thousands being recruited every day.

This war was meant to make Iraq a democracy and this will never happen. The U.S puppets can tell you all the good things you want to hear about the progress they have made, but as long as there are extemists (and as long as religion exists there always will be) in Iraq you can bet that there will never be a democracy in Iraq.

Just because you think they have won doesn't make it true.

You're just showing that you don't understand what happened over there.

There have been numerous reports and studies done that have shown when the US refused to work with Saddam's people after the initial invasion many of them turned against the US and started the 'insurgency.'

Last year when the 'surge' happened the US finally sat down with those people and hammered out a deal. Politically or economically, but they somehow figured out a way to get them from killing innocent people, shoot at the US troops and blowing stuff up.

There is some violence over there, but it has largely been stemmed. In the meantime there is relative stability with the government and the economy.

What the hell more do you want?